HP: I think I am fixing to be reformed or reforming. Does that help my odds?
Only if you don't fall away......
:laugh:
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How does OSAS fail the Sola Scriptura Test?
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
Only if you don't fall away......
:laugh:
Now that was funny!:thumbs:
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
Did I say anything remotely sounding like Musilms are save? Of course not that is why the comparison. Because as you know Catholics are exactly like Muslims. In fact if you believe Jack Chick Catholics created Islam and have a secret agreement for them to have Turkey and Catholics to have Lebanon. Get real.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Matt 18 is explicitly teaching "forgiveness revoked" in the case of "I forgave you ALL that debt" followed by "make him pay ALL".
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
At one point Dr Walter argued that Paul did not preach the Gospel to the people at Corinth and so the 1Cor 9 statement above about being a fellow partaker in the gospel - cannot refer to being saved as a benefit of the Gospel (vs 22 not withstanding) but can only be referring to a common "vocation".
But clearly Paul makes the case in that very letter to Corinth - that he DOES regard the people at Corinth as those to whom he had preached the Gospel.
in Christ,
Bob
I disagree with your interpretation of that scripture.
Matthew Henry says of this passage "We are not to suppose that God actually forgives men, and afterwards reckons their guilt to them to condemn them; but this latter part of the parable shows the false conclusions many draw as to their sins being pardoned, though their after-conduct shows that they never entered into the spirit, or experienced the sanctifying grace of the gospel."
Dr. Walter
New Member
I never said such a thing. Any casual reader of the New Testament knows that Paul preached the gospel at Corinth. Neither did I make that argument in regard to chapter nine.
I have argued and continue to argue that Paul is not speaking about obtaining personal salvation in the disputed texts in chapter nine but rather warning against demanding your rights to the point that obtaining your rights hinder your usefulness by God to reach the lost with the gospel. Paul wanted to be joint partakers with them in being used by God to reach the lost with the gospel.
In the context, he could demand certain things that rightfully belong to him as an apostle but he willingly gave up those rights because he feared that demanding his rights would destroy his effectiveness to be used by God to reach the lost and thus be set aside by his own preoccupation with self-interests.
Both his readers and himself have to deal with maintaining their own unhindered testimony if they don't want to be disqualified in the eyes of men as objective witnesses of the Gospel and thus disqualified from being effective for the use of God.
I have argued and continue to argue that Paul is not speaking about obtaining personal salvation in the disputed texts in chapter nine but rather warning against demanding your rights to the point that obtaining your rights hinder your usefulness by God to reach the lost with the gospel. Paul wanted to be joint partakers with them in being used by God to reach the lost with the gospel.
In the context, he could demand certain things that rightfully belong to him as an apostle but he willingly gave up those rights because he feared that demanding his rights would destroy his effectiveness to be used by God to reach the lost and thus be set aside by his own preoccupation with self-interests.
Both his readers and himself have to deal with maintaining their own unhindered testimony if they don't want to be disqualified in the eyes of men as objective witnesses of the Gospel and thus disqualified from being effective for the use of God.
No such doctrine Bob. No need to keep bringing it up.
Paul makes the case using illustrations for athletes being disqualified for a race. But he doesn't make the case for an athlete no longer being an athlete. Your argument does not hold water.
You have clearly taken some statement of his out of context.
"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness, but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1Cor.1:18). Paul makes his case in the first and second chapters of First Corinthians.
Perhaps you are referring specifically to 1Cor.9:24-27 where he is not speaking of the gospel but of service. Are you sure you are not keeping his statements in context?
Yes, he does. It is good when bringing an accusation against a brother to put it in quotes. I would like to see you quote where Dr. Walters said such a thing, and then provide the URL to the quote. Otherwise all I am hearing from you is hearsay.
Due to poor eyesight, I listen to the Bible rather than read it, and I recently heard where Jesus said, "I am in the Father, you are in me and I in you." Plus, we are told that we have the Holy Spirit in us. You can't get any more secure than that! We are also told that we are "sealed unto the day of redemption." NO one can break God's seal!
Of course, when I was able to see well enough to read, I read the Bible through several times and studied much of it. Now I can only read with my left eye.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Those who deny eternal security of the true believer often point out the present tense "followeth" in such passage as Jn. 10:28 and make it a CONDITION when the text itself does not present it as a CONDITION but rather places it in the INDICATIVE mode presenting it as a DECLARATION OF FACT. It is put in the present tense because it is contiuous ongoing action without any hint of stopping.
Jesus is "the author and finisher of our faith" and this is why Paul could claim with UNCONDITIONAL confidence:
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: - Philip. 1:6
The evidence of false professors whom deniers of OSAS use as evidence that truly saved people do not continue in faith is in itself proof that true believers always do continue as John says,
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. - I Jn. 2:19
Jesus is "the author and finisher of our faith" and this is why Paul could claim with UNCONDITIONAL confidence:
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: - Philip. 1:6
The evidence of false professors whom deniers of OSAS use as evidence that truly saved people do not continue in faith is in itself proof that true believers always do continue as John says,
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. - I Jn. 2:19
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Dr. Walter
New Member
The Arminian definition and description of salvation is from beginning to end the results of reversing the Biblical order between cause and consequence. What the Scriptures demand is the cause of salvation the Arminian forces it to be the consequence of salvation and what the Scriptures teach to be the consequence of salvation the Arminian forces to be the cause of salvation.
For example,
1. The Bible teaches that election is the CAUSE tha leads "TO salvation" thus making salvation the consequence - 2 Thes. 2:13. Arminianism reverses this.
2. The Bible teaches that election is the CAUSE that leads "to...sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" - 2 Thes. 2:13 - Arminianism reverses this.
3. The Bible teaches that "foreknowledge" is the CONSEQUENCE of God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28 before Rom. 8:29). Arminianism reverses this.
4. The bible teaches that one must first have a heart that is capable to see,hear and perceive (Deut. 5:29; 29:4; Ez. 36:26-27) before "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:8). Armininianism reverses this.
For example,
1. The Bible teaches that election is the CAUSE tha leads "TO salvation" thus making salvation the consequence - 2 Thes. 2:13. Arminianism reverses this.
2. The Bible teaches that election is the CAUSE that leads "to...sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth" - 2 Thes. 2:13 - Arminianism reverses this.
3. The Bible teaches that "foreknowledge" is the CONSEQUENCE of God's eternal purpose (Rom. 8:28 before Rom. 8:29). Arminianism reverses this.
4. The bible teaches that one must first have a heart that is capable to see,hear and perceive (Deut. 5:29; 29:4; Ez. 36:26-27) before "with the heart man believeth" (Rom. 10:8). Armininianism reverses this.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: 2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
This passage doe not make God the sole ‘cause’ of salvation. If one was to argue from the position you clearly appear to be making, all is necessitated and fatalism rules. Blaming man for failure to do the absolute impossible under your scheme of things, i.e., overcome necessitated fate, makes a complete mockery of God’s justice and paints a horrible blight on the character of a Holy and Just God. The passage you set forth simply does not mention all the ‘means’ God uses to choose recorded in many other passages. “Jos 24:15 ¶ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.” Mr 6:12 And they went out, and preached that men should repent. Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
HP: Here again you set up God as the ‘cause,’ when that passage is not doing any such thing. It begs the question by what means is one sanctified by the Spirit, and will that be accomplished simply by an act of God with man only playing a passive roll. The answer is a resounded no. Man is required of God to fulfill the conditions God has established for one to be sanctified by the Spirit, without which it will not be accomplished in ones life. Man is not some passive lump of clay as your comments apparently make him. Again, you paint nothing short of the necessitated system of thought known the world over as Calvinism.
HP: You again paint a picture of necessitated fatalism, straight out of the playbook of Augustine and Calvin. Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 ¶ For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
This passage, much like the first, merely begs the question as to the means God has determined to bring about such a calling and predestination. It in no way insinuates it is all of God, nor does it paint the necessitated picture your system of fatalism genders.
HP: I say Arminianism does no such thing. God calls on man first to change his own heart. Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? The Calvinistic notion of God needing to regenerate the spirit or heart prior to coming to Him is unfounded in Scripture. Such teaching as you seem to be advocating is the very bedrock foundation of pure Calvinism.
All man needs is to hear the gospel. Man has the necessary abilities, he just needs to exercised his will in accordance to the gospel message as God’s Spirit draws him. Man needs to exercise his will in repentance and turn from the sin God’s Spirit has revealed to him in order to be saved.
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Did Jesus say..."you did not choose me,but I have chosen you"? Jesus later said "I have chosen you out of the world". Also
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Yes this really is in the bible.....believe it or not.
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Again with the calvinism. You yourself are a calvinist by your own standard.
Why did God cause Adam to fail by giving him a choice?
Your answer was...
Adam must fail that love may be conceived.
You yourself recognize that God causes things to happen, so why do you call people calvinist who also recognize the same?
Dr. Walter
New Member
There is a vast distinction between fatalism and purpose.
You did exactly what I predicted. You reversed stated cause with stated effects.
2 Thessalonians gives God's choice as the stated cause to salvation as well as the stated cause to the means of procuring that salvation in time and space. You can deny it to your blue in the face but it does not change the fact written into the grammatical structure of that text. It still says the same thing when you finish talking.
God's election is UNTO salvation which necessarily means that the fall into sin necessarily precedes divine election or else there is no "salvation" needed.
Here is where your system of Arminianism again fails. Man acted in Adam and by that one act all men were made sinners (Rom. 5:19). That action forfeited all rights to the promises of the contrary action of obedience. That action called for divine condemnation upon all mankind and only justice which if carried out upon mankind would be perfectly just.
In addition, this fall into sin produced a nature that will not seek God (Psa. 14:2-3) but left to its own free choice will always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) and God is perfectly just in allowing every individual sinner to continue in their love for sin and hated for God right into a just eternal punishment in hell. That is justice.
However, it is in regard to that kind of man, God can justly allow to follow their own free choice into hell or elect some unto eternal life purely by grace without injustice to any. Those he simply allows to go on in their free choice to reject him have no one to blame but their own free choice, and those who God elects to salvation have no one to praise but God's FREE grace.
This is not fatalism but the Divine purpose of grace upon the elect and justice upon those who are allowed continue in their own free choice.
There is no mockery of justice as Christ satisfies justice for the elect by satisfying the just demands of the law in their behalf and the non-elect satisfy the just demands of the Law by paying for their own willful continuance in sin.
The non-elect cannot blame anyone but their own choice to continue to resist and reject the light of nature God gives unto every man and in every man that cometh into this world. In addition, those exposed to more light (The written revelation, the gospel) are even more accountable for continuing in their resistance and rejection due to their own will.
God has not only chosen the elect unto salvation by pure mercy and grace but chosen the means to save them in time and space - through the sanctifying, setting apart by the Spirit of God in regeneration and conversion to the truth of the Gospel (2 Thes. 2:13-14).
Who are the elect? We come to know them as we share the gospel and those who are the elect come to know their election when the gospel comes not to them IN WORD ONLY (general call) but in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (effectual call) - 1 Thes. 1:4-5.
We preach with confidence that God "has much people in this city" and as the word is proclaimed the Holy Spirit makes it effectual to the elect.
Thus to some the preaching of the gospel is death unto death as they continue in resistance and rejection while unto others it is the savor unto life (2 Cor. 2:14-16).
Note that Ephesians 1::4-14 begins with elective purpose of God just as Romans 8:28-39 begins with "the called ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE" and the working out of that purpose is certain as verses 29-30 demonstrate and verse 31 draws that conclusion - "what shall we say to these things? IF God be FOR US who can be against us?"
Hence, this is anything but fatalism. It is the Divine Purpose of Grace and Justice being carried out in pure righteousness
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
You did exactly what I predicted. You reversed stated cause with stated effects.
2 Thessalonians gives God's choice as the stated cause to salvation as well as the stated cause to the means of procuring that salvation in time and space. You can deny it to your blue in the face but it does not change the fact written into the grammatical structure of that text. It still says the same thing when you finish talking.
God's election is UNTO salvation which necessarily means that the fall into sin necessarily precedes divine election or else there is no "salvation" needed.
Here is where your system of Arminianism again fails. Man acted in Adam and by that one act all men were made sinners (Rom. 5:19). That action forfeited all rights to the promises of the contrary action of obedience. That action called for divine condemnation upon all mankind and only justice which if carried out upon mankind would be perfectly just.
In addition, this fall into sin produced a nature that will not seek God (Psa. 14:2-3) but left to its own free choice will always resist the Holy Spirit (Acts 7:51) and God is perfectly just in allowing every individual sinner to continue in their love for sin and hated for God right into a just eternal punishment in hell. That is justice.
However, it is in regard to that kind of man, God can justly allow to follow their own free choice into hell or elect some unto eternal life purely by grace without injustice to any. Those he simply allows to go on in their free choice to reject him have no one to blame but their own free choice, and those who God elects to salvation have no one to praise but God's FREE grace.
This is not fatalism but the Divine purpose of grace upon the elect and justice upon those who are allowed continue in their own free choice.
There is no mockery of justice as Christ satisfies justice for the elect by satisfying the just demands of the law in their behalf and the non-elect satisfy the just demands of the Law by paying for their own willful continuance in sin.
The non-elect cannot blame anyone but their own choice to continue to resist and reject the light of nature God gives unto every man and in every man that cometh into this world. In addition, those exposed to more light (The written revelation, the gospel) are even more accountable for continuing in their resistance and rejection due to their own will.
God has not only chosen the elect unto salvation by pure mercy and grace but chosen the means to save them in time and space - through the sanctifying, setting apart by the Spirit of God in regeneration and conversion to the truth of the Gospel (2 Thes. 2:13-14).
Who are the elect? We come to know them as we share the gospel and those who are the elect come to know their election when the gospel comes not to them IN WORD ONLY (general call) but in power and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance (effectual call) - 1 Thes. 1:4-5.
We preach with confidence that God "has much people in this city" and as the word is proclaimed the Holy Spirit makes it effectual to the elect.
Thus to some the preaching of the gospel is death unto death as they continue in resistance and rejection while unto others it is the savor unto life (2 Cor. 2:14-16).
Note that Ephesians 1::4-14 begins with elective purpose of God just as Romans 8:28-39 begins with "the called ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE" and the working out of that purpose is certain as verses 29-30 demonstrate and verse 31 draws that conclusion - "what shall we say to these things? IF God be FOR US who can be against us?"
Hence, this is anything but fatalism. It is the Divine Purpose of Grace and Justice being carried out in pure righteousness
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
This is a good point. The Arminian solution employs the supernatural act of God in "DRAWING ALL" John 12:32 and in placing emnity in ALL mankind against Satan Gen 3:15 and in God who "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16:8 and in God who "stands at the door and knocks" in the case of the one who DOES NOT have Christ on the inside but rather who is ALONE on the inside ... for it is the DRAWING of God that EVEN in the Calvinist model "enables all that choice which depravity disables".
Thus the only solutoin for the Calvinist argument is to ignore this elephant standing in their living room.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
HP: 2Th 2:13 ¶ But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
This passage doe not make God the sole ‘cause’ of salvation. If one was to argue from the position you clearly appear to be making, all is necessitated and fatalism rules.
Several points worth noting
1. Saved in the process of sanctification not appart from it.
Heb 12 14 Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctificationwithout which no one will see the Lord.
2. Saved in Belief - not in unbelief John 6:20 -
11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, (John 1)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3
By contrast - Calvinism teaching "arbitrary selection of the FEW" in Matt 7 on the narrow road - in a God "does not so love the world" model.
in Christ,
Bob