How Does Penal Substitution Relate to Other Atonement Theories?

[Martin Marprelate]

You add a caveat. 'For the wages of sin is death
IF God's words are everlasting, IF what He declared as true is actually true, THEN there is no "unless".

????? Romans 6:23. 'For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life, in Christ Jesus our Lord.' It is God Himself who gives what you are pleased to call a caveat. God has provided a way that sinful men can be justified by God; that way is the penal substitution provided by the Lord Jesus Christ set forth by Paul in Romans 3.

You indicate that God lied, that there is an "unless".

Now you are being silly. If I am calling God a liar, so is the vast majority of Baptists down the ages, including Bunyan and Spurgeon.

But the verse specifically tells us that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is life.

God declared that YOU (if you have sinned) will experience the wages of sin which is death. Is that true?

It would certainly be true were it not for the 'but.'

That is a major disagreement you seem to want to gloss over.

Traditional Christianity says that the wages of sin is death (sin produces death, which we earn as a wage). So we will all experience death as a wage of sin. But the gift (not earned) of God is life in Christ. So in dying yet shall those in Christ live.

You say that God misstated His view, that the wages of sin are death....unless.

No. I am saying that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. To find out how that gift of God comes to us we have to stop bouncing up and down on one verse of Scripture as if it were a trampoline and read the Bible properly.

 

[JonC]

It is stupid, but not more so than your accusation of me.

Because it is 'simple forgiveness.' Where is the justice of God? '....By no means clearing the guilty.'

Because that is what you are saying. The man has had a change of mind, he has had a new birth and so forth, and is totaly repentant but where is the justice? If a man in jail awaiting sentence for some foul crime announces that he has been born anew, that he has died to sin and so forth, even if 50 theologians certify that he's telling the truth, justice demands that she be satisfied, that the wages of sin be paid.
Do you understand now, or do you still not get it?

One of us appears not to understand traditional Christianity, but I think you will find it's you.

Well we're all doomed in that case, though I did point out to you Romans 1:18 which you have blithely ignored as is your usual practice. But of course the Ransom Theory has Christ paying the ransom But the 'ransom,' of course, is not paid to Satan as Origen supposed, but to the righteousness of God., so that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.

You still don't comprehend.

Simple forgiveness is typically viewed as forgiving somebody because that person is sorry.

God forgives based on repentance (passages have been provided, although you deny their truth).

This repentance is not just being sorry. It includes sorrow, but a "godly sorrow leading to repentance".

It is a change of mind - changing from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit, God removing the old heart, the old spirit, and giving us new ones, God putting His Spirit in us, God recreating us, man dying to sin.

This is what Pharisees could not grasp, what Nicodemus struggled with.

I know that seems to you as foolishness. But to many of us it is the power of God unto salvation. That is why we argue so strongly.

I would persuade you, if I could. But I can't do that is not my goal.

 

[JonC]

????? Romans 6:23. 'For the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life, in Christ Jesus our Lord.' It is God Himself who gives what you are pleased to call a caveat. God has provided a way that sinful men can be justified by God; that way is the penal substitution provided by the Lord Jesus Christ set forth by Paul in Romans 3.
Now you are being silly. If I am calling God a liar, so is the vast majority of Baptists down the ages, including Bunyan and Spurgeon.


It would certainly be true were it not for the 'but.'

No. I am saying that the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. To find out how that gift of God comes to us we have to stop bouncing up and down on one verse of Scripture as if it were a trampoline and read the Bible properly.

You added an "unless".

You said the wages of sin is death unless.

The wages of sin is death. That is what sin produces, what we earn by sinning.

And then there is a conjunction (a conjunction is used to introduce a phrase or clause contrasting with what has already been mentioned). This conjunction is "but' (you could use "yet").

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

Sin produces an earned wage - death.
God gives an unearned gift - life.