How does Rome and the Pope view Child Molestors?

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Only in California, the land of liberal perverts and sickos, would that be debatable.
Gee, and I wonder why some longterm BB members have left the board... I find your broadbrushing of California to be unchristian, offensive, and unrighteously judgemental, and an example of hyberfundamentalism gone awry. I, being in California, am neither a pervert, a sicko, nor a liberal.

There is no debate here, I promise you. The law better get you before I do if you ever lay a hand on my child, consentual or not.
And to top off your extremist attitude, you espouse vigilante violence towards another. Such a model of Christian behavior

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
I cannot help but believe that forced celebacy is the sin at the bottom of this whole mess.

In another forum, several folks have espoused the idea that divorced Christians should not remarry and instead remain celibate. Yet the idea of remaining celibate and becoming a priest doesn't seem to be given the same consideration.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Only in California, the land of liberal perverts and sickos, would that be debatable.
Gee, and I wonder why some longterm BB members have left the board... I find your broadbrushing of California to be unchristian, offensive, and unrighteously judgemental, and an example of hyberfundamentalism gone awry.

Thank you. I consider that a high honor coming from a liberal like you who doesn't seem to know the difference between right and wrong.

I, being in California, am neither a pervert, a sicko, nor a liberal.</font>[/QUOTE]Perhaps you are considered Conservative for California standards, but you wouldn't stand the test for one here in the South. as far as I am concerned, you are a liberal with no idea about what is right and what is wrong. But, either way, my comment still stands, California is the land of liberal perverts and sickos.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Eladar]

Rakka Rage,

celibacy is a gift? from who?

From God.

1 Corinthians 7:6-9

I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

 

[Eladar]

California is the land of liberal perverts and sickos.

The United States is the land of perverts and sickos.

 

[A_Christian]

Mandatory celibacy in order to be a "Roman"
Catholic priest instills a sense of false pride
(I am so better off than a married man with
a wife and kids----I must be extra special).
It promotes false humility (I gave up having a
family to do service to the LORD---I'll get a far
better reward someday for my work).
Celibacy promotes non-biblical guidlines for
assuming roles of Church leadership, thus creating
a fraternally controlled order rather than
a spiritually lead shepherding of the flock.
Demanding celibacy, increases the likelyhood of
enlisting sexual deviants trying to hide and not
face their problem.

 

[LaRae]

Originally posted by A_Christian:
Mandatory celibacy in order to be a "Roman"
Catholic priest instills a sense of false pride
(I am so better off than a married man with
a wife and kids----I must be extra special).
It promotes false humility (I gave up having a
family to do service to the LORD---I'll get a far
better reward someday for my work).
Celibacy promotes non-biblical guidlines for
assuming roles of Church leadership, thus creating
a fraternally controlled order rather than
a spiritually lead shepherding of the flock.
Demanding celibacy, increases the likelyhood of
enlisting sexual deviants trying to hide and not
face their problem.

Praytell when you were give then ability to see into men's hearts and know this is what they think?

How many Catholic priests have you met and gotten to know?

I have NEVER met a priest who had a false sense of pride or in any way felt superior....they are servants of the flock.

Beware of the sin of false witness.


LaRae

[ June 03, 2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: LaRae ]

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I consider that a high honor coming from a liberal like you who doesn't seem to know the difference between right and wrong.
Perhaps you are considered Conservative for California standards, but you wouldn't stand the test for one here in the South. as far as I am concerned, you are a liberal with no idea about what is right and what is wrong.

I consider that remark a personal attack. Not that you care about other people's feelings or anything. Give my regards to David Duke, btw.

Oh, btw, seeing as how your profile says you're in Arkansas, I just got off the phone with my conservative Baptist brother who lives in Springdale. He's assured me that I'm a moderate conservative according to Arkansas Baptist Christian Standards.

 

[Eladar]

Joseph,

Then there's the old adage:

There are only two things from Texas:

Steers and ***vulgar word removed****
How about this one complements of David Letterman:

A couple is marrried in Arkansas. They move to California (yes this was what Dave said). They get divorced.

Now legally, are they still brother and sister.

[ June 03, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Tuor:
I say this as a concession, not as a command. I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that. Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

Tuor hath done the homework, and thus shared wisely. I certainly can't argue with the verse. Celibacy is indeed a valid Godly life choice for unmarried persons. Debate about the RCC aside, celibacy really isn't an issue to the point.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by WPutnam:
Or do you reject the idea that this problem is just as prevalant in other denominations, being small enough to be under the radar screen of the media, that they would be exposed as well?

Yes I totally reject it. I truly believe that one thing we can thank the priests for is that because of their acts the "radar screen" has been lowered. I would be interested in your evidence that any other denominations clergy is as rabid in their sexual actions as are the catholics.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by MikeS:
you mention pedophilia, but very, very few cases of abuse were actually pedophilia. Most involved teens, often of the age of consent, and most of those involved homosexual behavior.

Mike if you had any idea how rediculous your reply sounds I doubt you would have posted it. These sexual deviants have had a field day on the innocents and you have time to clarify the exact age of the victims and correct us on the terminology. Call the victims what you will just stop those who are the offenders.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Carson Weber:
In the recent Boston scandal, only four of the more than eighty priests labeled by the media as 'pedophiles' are actually guilty of molesting young children." (Deal Hudson, Editor of Crisis Magazine)

Man that was a busy 4 man team.
Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by WPutnam:
I would probably join you in all of this as well, IF I were personally aware of an individual clergyman (or anyone, actually) of being guilty as you state.

Just curious, would you have to actually see a priest raping a child to believe it?
Murph

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeS:
you mention pedophilia, but very, very few cases of abuse were actually pedophilia. Most involved teens, often of the age of consent, and most of those involved homosexual behavior.

Mike if you had any idea how rediculous your reply sounds I doubt you would have posted it. These sexual deviants have had a field day on the innocents and you have time to clarify the exact age of the victims and correct us on the terminology. Call the victims what you will just stop those who are the offenders. </font>[/QUOTE]So, the cause of truth and justice is furthered by calling things by their wrong names? If I go to the doctor with a broken arm and he says I have a sinus infection, am I going to get the right treatment? If I go to the police and report my car stolen, and they write it up as a home invasion, are they going to do the right police work? If the Church has a homosexual problem and treats it as a pedophile problem, will it get fixed? No, more people are more likely to be hurt!

I know that the homosexual community and the left in general is quite anxious to deny the overwhelming homosexual nature of the evil behavior, but why should anybody else be so anxious to do so? Why are anybody here anxious to call this mainly a pedophile problem when the evidence clearly shows that it is not? What is the gain, other than perhaps to get the most propaganda mileage out of other people's suffering, while assuring the the problem will not be addressed effectively?

I guess I'll go on the record each and every post now that the criminals need to be in jail without exception, the enablers and incompetents need to be kicked out, and the disobedient, dissenting, defiant and heterodox culture within the Church that allowed or minimized the problem (including keeping Rome largely in the dark) needs to be hosed out of the Church like the filth of the Augean Stables.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by LaRae:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by A_Christian:
Mandatory celibacy in order to be a "Roman"
Catholic priest instills a sense of false pride
(I am so better off than a married man with
a wife and kids----I must be extra special).
It promotes false humility (I gave up having a
family to do service to the LORD---I'll get a far
better reward someday for my work).
Celibacy promotes non-biblical guidlines for
assuming roles of Church leadership, thus creating
a fraternally controlled order rather than
a spiritually lead shepherding of the flock.
Demanding celibacy, increases the likelyhood of
enlisting sexual deviants trying to hide and not
face their problem.

Praytell when you were give then ability to see into men's hearts and know this is what they think?

How many Catholic priests have you met and gotten to know?

I have NEVER met a priest who had a false sense of pride or in any way felt superior....they are servants of the flock.

Beware of the sin of false witness.


LaRae </font>[/QUOTE]Sorry but I see no false witness here. The poster gave his opinion and it is shared by some. You have the same right to express yours.
Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by MikeS:

I guess I'll go on the record each and every post now that the criminals need to be in jail without exception, the enablers and incompetents need to be kicked out, and the disobedient, dissenting, defiant and heterodox culture within the Church that allowed or minimized the problem (including keeping Rome largely in the dark) needs to be hosed out of the Church like the filth of the Augean Stables.

Mike that may be a rough draft but I like it, don't change a thing. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Murph

 

[C.S. Murphy]

This is an ugly issue but we cannot be ugly to each other. I reread the entire thread and commented on several posts. All in all I think it was very informative and although I have dissagreed with Catholic Convert many times I want to say publically that I appreciated his posts on this thread.

Murph

 

[MikeS]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MikeS:

I guess I'll go on the record each and every post now that the criminals need to be in jail without exception, the enablers and incompetents need to be kicked out, and the disobedient, dissenting, defiant and heterodox culture within the Church that allowed or minimized the problem (including keeping Rome largely in the dark) needs to be hosed out of the Church like the filth of the Augean Stables.

Mike that may be a rough draft but I like it, don't change a thing. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Murph </font>

Murph,

I doubt any non-Catholic can know the pain and anger and sorrow these have caused to the faithful in the Church. You think you're mad, but you're just idling compared to us, those who believe the special claims of the Church, who have seen these people defile and abuse not only children and teens (better a millstone around their necks!), but defile and abuse the very Bride and Body of Christ.

But now the filthy boil has burst, and the Church will be stronger and more faithful in the future. This scandal has been a 2x4 to Catholic foreheads, and many are responding with great fervor to heal the Church. I know that I was brought back into the Church last year, after being a self-centered twit for 30 years, to help in this healing! God brings good from every evil!

[ June 03, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

[GraceSaves]

Just a few comments:

Joseph made a comment about the Pope supposedly being as close to perfect to God as possible. Two things in regards to that:

1) We are all called to be holy as the Father is holy. You are to be as holy as the Pope is to be holy. Yes, because he is the visible head of the Church, we should certainly expect it, but no more so than I should expect it of you and me.

2) We sin, and Pope John Paul II sins. And because his life is a public life, this comes out while yours, for instance, very often remain private. It is an unfair criticism, unless you want to lay out all your faults for us. Both you and the Pope can and do receive the Lord's inifinte mercy and forgiveness, and I'm betting the Pope asks for the Lord for forgiveness very often, as I do believe he strives to live a holy life by God's grace, pleasing to our God.

Thus, your statement, I believe, was quite unfair and untrue, because it is not applicable to just him, but to all. So don't condemn him sins until you are through thoroughly condemning your own, which will probably continue until you depart this earth, just as they will for him.

POINT #2:
Have priests who are TRULY guilty of sexual crimes be punished? Absolutely. We are to be subject to the civil laws; there is no question about that.

Are all the reports valid? Ceratainly not. While the filth is being exposed, there are always those who abuse this domino effect in the hopes of money or getting their names in print and so forth. Not all claims are justified.

Thus, of course, coverups should not be happening. The due course of the law should reveal the guilty and set free the innocent.

Now, did coverups occur? Yes. Does that mean that any bishop who participated in a coverup of one form or another did so for malicious reasons? How are we to know? Motive is a tricky thing, and while some probably did it to save their own skin, others may have done it for other reasons, which we certainly don't know, considering this latest story is very knew, and we have no right to jump to "GUILTY" conclusions. Again, the law will find the guilty and justly punish them (at least, we all hope so!)

So, in sum, do our Catholic leaders mess up? Of course they do. They are merely human, and humans mess up, often in very big ways. That doesn't mean that we should give up on humanity, does it? Are you giving up on humanity? I doubt it. And I'm not giving up on our divinely instituted Church, because while it is made up of sinners, just like the rest of humanity, God made it good, and at its core, it maintains that divine spark of love, hope, and the Gospel message.

As for any insults that will come my way, expect me to ignore them, because that shows irrational thinking and jumping to conclusions, which is not how we solve problems, but how we make them worse.

God bless you all, and I ask for your prayers that we learn from our sins so that the Body of Christ will be ever strengthened, and our walk with Christ be ever narrowed.

Grant