how does the RCC officially View the papacy?

[The Biblicist]

That isn't true either. You claim....

You are making a fundemental error! You are confusing what people "claim" with what Scriptures teach. The scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of truth - 1 Jn. 2:29. It does not matter what a person may claim. The truth is not changed because their claim is true or false.

Instead you are playing the divide and conquer card based upon a purely fabricated straw man argument!


The "church" is the "pillar and ground of the truth" but it is not the Roman Catholic Church which is the pillar and ground of paganized Christianity. The church of 1 Timothy 3:15 is the same in nature that qualfies a Bishop and deacons as described in 1 Tim. 3:1-13 and administers the ordinances and preaches the gospel of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works evidenced by the fruits of regeneration - "good works."

 

[Fred's Wife]

You are making a fundemental error! You are confusing what people "claim" with what Scriptures teach. The scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of truth - 1 Jn. 2:29. It does not matter what a person may claim. The truth is not changed because their claim is true or false.

Instead you are playing the divide and conquer card based upon a purely fabricated straw man argument!


The "church" is the "pillar and ground of the truth" but it is not the Roman Catholic Church which is the pillar and ground of paganized Christianity. The church of 1 Timothy 3:15 is the same in nature that qualfies a Bishop and deacons as described in 1 Tim. 3:1-13 and administers the ordinances and preaches the gospel of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone without works evidenced by the fruits of regeneration - "good works."

:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

You are making a fundemental error! You are confusing what people "claim" with what Scriptures teach. The scriptures clearly teach that the Holy Spirit is the teacher of truth - 1 Jn. 2:29. It does not matter what a person may claim. The truth is not changed because their claim is true or false.

Here is the fundamental problem with your reply. You do not know who is filled with the Holy Spirit and who is not. Take two different people and look at their lives and both lives evidence the Holy Spirit by the fruit of the Spirit being displayed. You assume by their lives that they are filled with the Holy Spirit but in reality you don't know. Now when it comes to scripture these same two people have differeing opinions on what the text means. Thus thought the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit leads people to all truth the fact is you don't see this played out by the many protestant denominations because the truth is different for all of them though their members display the fruit of the spirit. And what is even more scary is the fact that the fruit of the spirit can be displayed by non Christians!!!!! And when I say the fruit of the spirit I'm speaking about Gal 5:22-23.

Instead you are playing the divide and conquer card based upon a purely fabricated straw man argument!

Its not a straw man because there is no agreement to what is the truth regarding scripture among all the denominations and people claiming to be Christian!

The "church" is the "pillar and ground of the truth" but it is not the Roman Catholic Church which is the pillar and ground of paganized Christianity.

Your error is this statement doesn't even make sense. The Catholic Church has and always will be Christian. No paganism to it save in your imagining.

 

[Yeshua1]

Here is the fundamental problem with your reply. You do not know who is filled with the Holy Spirit and who is not. Take two different people and look at their lives and both lives evidence the Holy Spirit by the fruit of the Spirit being displayed. You assume by their lives that they are filled with the Holy Spirit but in reality you don't know. Now when it comes to scripture these same two people have differeing opinions on what the text means. Thus thought the Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit leads people to all truth the fact is you don't see this played out by the many protestant denominations because the truth is different for all of them though their members display the fruit of the spirit. And what is even more scary is the fact that the fruit of the spirit can be displayed by non Christians!!!!! And when I say the fruit of the spirit I'm speaking about Gal 5:22-23.


Its not a straw man because there is no agreement to what is the truth regarding scripture among all the denominations and people claiming to be Christian!



Your error is this statement doesn't even make sense. The Catholic Church has and always will be Christian. No paganism to it save in your imagining.

Again, ALL true christians will agree on the essential/core doctrines of the faith, and can freely agree to disagree on those side issues, such as timing of second Coming, versions of the Bible, set up church govt etc

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Again, ALL true christians will agree on the essential/core doctrines of the faith, and can freely agree to disagree on those side issues, such as timing of second Coming, versions of the Bible, set up church govt etc

Ok which ones are right? Which group? Core doctrines are different even among those under the baptist name. Which group can I go to for authoritative teaching of Scripture? Can you for that matter? Is it the ones that agree with you? If so what gives you the authority over another Christian? How about Pentecostals? How about Presbyterians? How about Methodist? How about Harold Camping? You can't even show me one group who is correct above all the other groups! And note your statement "they agree with core/doctrines" which aren't agreed on btw but even if it were true (which it is not) The scriptures say the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. Which means anything not core as well!!!!! therefore either your view would mean the Holy Spirit isn't doing a good job and floundering very badly.

 

[Yeshua1]

Ok which ones are right? Which group? Core doctrines are different even among those under the baptist name. Which group can I go to for authoritative teaching of Scripture? Can you for that matter? Is it the ones that agree with you? If so what gives you the authority over another Christian? How about Pentecostals? How about Presbyterians? How about Methodist? How about Harold Camping? You can't even show me one group who is correct above all the other groups! And note your statement "they agree with core/doctrines" which aren't agreed on btw but even if it were true (which it is not) The scriptures say the Holy Spirit will lead us to all truth. Which means anything not core as well!!!!! therefore either your view would mean the Holy Spirit isn't doing a good job and floundering very badly.

No, its the truth that the Holy Spirit did NOT give forth the doctrines of the RCC, but he did give to ALL true believers the Spirit to instruct them in the faith, and the essential issues are known and accepted by All christians!

problem is that the RCC doctrines are not from Him not the bible he authored....

 

[Thinkingstuff]

No, its the truth that the Holy Spirit did NOT give forth the doctrines of the RCC

And how do you know this?

but he did give to ALL true believers the Spirit to instruct them in the faith,

Again which ones are they? Point them out. Which denomination? Which truth? What group of people?

and the essential issues are known and accepted by All christians!

All "essential truths" in some fashion are hotly debated and argued over by all Christians. And name me what you believe to be essential truths.

problem is that the RCC doctrines are not from Him not the bible he authored....

First you haven't shown me that RCC doctrines aren't from God and now you are saying God penned the bible rather than inspiring Holy Men to Write the text's. Didn't Joseph Smith believed God gave him Golden Tablets Authored by God?

 

[Moriah]

First you haven't shown me that RCC doctrines aren't from God and now you are saying God penned the bible rather than inspiring Holy Men to Write the text's. Didn't Joseph Smith believed God gave him Golden Tablets Authored by God?

The RCC doctrines go against the Word of God. They became a false religion when they go against God.
Jesus says to call no man ‘father’ and that they are brothers.
The Bible says not to make things with our hands and bow to them; the Catholics bow to the “Holy Images” images made by human hands.

God says Jesus is the mediator between God and man. The Catholic Church declared Mary a mediator.

Those are some things that make the Catholic Church a false religion. Get rid of the falseness and you will obey God. Stop doing what God hates.

 

[Walter]

And how do you know this?

Again which ones are they? Point them out. Which denomination? Which truth? What group of people?


All "essential truths" in some fashion are hotly debated and argued over by all Christians. And name me what you believe to be essential truths.

First you haven't shown me that RCC doctrines aren't from God and now you are saying God penned the bible rather than inspiring Holy Men to Write the text's. Didn't Joseph Smith believed God gave him Golden Tablets Authored by God?

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

And how do you know this?

They are blasphemous.
They go contrary to the Word of God.
They can easily be refuted by the Word of God.

Again which ones are they? Point them out. Which denomination? Which truth? What group of people?

The Holy Spirit is given to all those who trust Christ by faith and faith alone, who have put their faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ to pay the full and complete atonement of their sins: past, present and future.

All "essential truths" in some fashion are hotly debated and argued over by all Christians. And name me what you believe to be essential truths.

Essential doctrines are commonly known by evangelical faiths every where. They have more in common than the many splits and different factions within the RCC themselves. Look well into your own mirror first.

First you haven't shown me that RCC doctrines aren't from God and now you are saying God penned the bible rather than inspiring Holy Men to Write the text's. Didn't Joseph Smith believed God gave him Golden Tablets Authored by God?

Are you saying now that you don't believe the Bible is inspired?
Does the RCC deny the inspiration of the Bible? When did that happen?
As for the apostate doctrines of the RCC, do a search. They have been listed here dozens of times.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The RCC doctrines go against the Word of God.

reitterating a point that you haven't given support to doesn't make it true

They became a false religion when they go against God.

How so?

Jesus says to call no man ‘father’ and that they are brothers.

And it has been shown that by taking this verse literally you have gone against the word of God by calling your father, father. And it also shows that you narrow Jesus and don't credit him with hyperbolic language which was comon among the Jews of his day. He also said cut off your arm to avoid sin. Yet you have not cut off your arms to avoid sin. So in the same judgement you give to the Catholic Church you have Judged yourself.
And you have shown yourself to have personally gone against God. Unless you don't really hold to that literal interpretation of that very verse you quoted. Do you call your Father brother so and so? I doubt it.

The Bible says not to make things with our hands and bow to them; the Catholics bow to the “Holy Images” images made by human hands.

as had been told you before God also had men make angles on the mercy seat of the ark of the covenant and men bowed down before it. Just because you bow doesn't mean you worship that object. When you bow before the "alter of God" when you go up for prayer which usually you are kneeling before a podium are you worshiping the podium? No of course not because how about the choir seats behind the pastor? No not that either because though you are bowing before an object or objects you are actaully worshiping God so it is with Catholics. So by the same judgement you judge Catholics you can be judged as well you've bowed down before objects made by human hands.

God says Jesus is the mediator between God and man.

Yes the Catholic church believes this.

The Catholic Church declared Mary a mediator

Only in the sense that she prays for us. You are a mediator when you pray for someone else but mediation doesn't displace the singular role of Jesus Christ. When you ask someone to pray for your needs you are asking them to mediate for you. Therefore by the same judgement you give the Catholic Church you are judged for going against God seeking a mediator apart from Jesus Christ.

Those are some things that make the Catholic Church a false religion.

As I've pointed out you've misapplied all these veres and if you hold to these interpretations you are guilty of the same offenses. Therefore its clear you don't really hold that view save to accuse the Catholic Church.

Get rid of the falseness and you will obey God. Stop doing what God hates.

And by the same judgement you give the Catholic Church look to yourself and do like wise.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

They are blasphemous.

Simply by saying something doesn't make it true.

They go contrary to the Word of God.

Simply saying something doesn't make it true.

They can easily be refuted by the Word of God.

Not so easy it would seem as often the word is abused by misinterpretation and applying pretext in order to attempt to refute the Catholic Church by the word of God

The Holy Spirit is given to all those who trust Christ by faith and faith alone, who have put their faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ to pay the full and complete atonement of their sins: past, present and future.

Which is it Faith or Faith alone? Are you saying that people who trust in Christ shed blood to pay for their sins and live a sanctified life aren't saved or have the Holy Spirit? It seems that is what you are saying. It seems that you are saying you must hold trust in Christ shed blood and by that faith alone you are given the Holy Spirit. But the people who actually live out their faith in sanctity are not given the Holy Spirit because their sanctity requires action. So your doctrine therefore is trust God and avoid righteous activity to show you have faith alone. Hmmmm. Not a good position if you ask me.

Essential doctrines are commonly known by evangelical faiths every where. They have more in common than the many splits and different factions within the RCC themselves. Look well into your own mirror first.

If they are so well known point them out.

Are you saying now that you don't believe the Bible is inspired?

Nope I'm saying whats your interpretative authority when its clear no one agrees about any doctrine?

Does the RCC deny the inspiration of the Bible?

Nope

When did that happen?

It never did. Can you differentiate between and inspired text and an authoritative interpretation?

As for the apostate doctrines of the RCC, do a search. They have been listed here dozens of times.

an all have shown to be in error.

 

[Yeshua1]

Simply by saying something doesn't make it true.

Simply saying something doesn't make it true.

Not so easy it would seem as often the word is abused by misinterpretation and applying pretext in order to attempt to refute the Catholic Church by the word of God


Which is it Faith or Faith alone? Are you saying that people who trust in Christ shed blood to pay for their sins and live a sanctified life aren't saved or have the Holy Spirit? It seems that is what you are saying. It seems that you are saying you must hold trust in Christ shed blood and by that faith alone you are given the Holy Spirit. But the people who actually live out their faith in sanctity are not given the Holy Spirit because their sanctity requires action. So your doctrine therefore is trust God and avoid righteous activity to show you have faith alone. Hmmmm. Not a good position if you ask me.


If they are so well known point them out.


Nope I'm saying whats your interpretative authority when its clear no one agrees about any doctrine?

Nope
It never did. Can you differentiate between and inspired text and an authoritative interpretation?

an all have shown to be in error.

the RCC refuses to accept salvation by grace alone,by faith alone, right there that makes it teaching 'false/another Gospel!"

Grants uninspired traditions of men to being equal to inspired revelation of the Bible

It has mary assuming the role/position ONLY God has

it makes sacraments as the basis for Gods grace, not the Cross itself, as best evidenced in the hidous mass every Sunday

It has Apostolic sucession assumed, NOT proved

the Pope and cardinals seen able to give Doctrines contary to the Bible

It sees itself as oNLY true Church of Christ, despite teaching against same Christ!

Anything else?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

the RCC refuses to accept salvation by grace alone

Now that is a false statement.

by faith alone

if what you mean by faith is the exclusion of living rightly Yes. If not then no.

right there that makes it teaching 'false/another Gospel!"

In fact since you were wong on both counts the final analysis is also wrong.

Grants uninspired traditions of men to being equal to inspired revelation of the Bible

As a matter of fact this is also false. Grants the inspired traditions of the apostles to be on par with the scriptures they wrote.

It has mary assuming the role/position ONLY God has

Again this is totally false. And shows your ignorance of the Catholic Faith.

it makes sacraments as the basis for Gods grace

Also false it makes God's grace the basis for the sacraments.

not the Cross itself, as best evidenced in the hidous mass every Sunday

The Cross provides grace. So this statement is a non sequitur.

It has Apostolic sucession assumed, NOT proved

It is proved from scripture and actual history.

the Pope and cardinals seen able to give Doctrines contary to the Bible

In fact they cannot. They are not permitted to do so.

It sees itself as oNLY true Church of Christ

So far this is the only true statement you've made. However, though it does see itself as the true church of Christ it does not exclude other faithful Christians from God's saving grace.

despite teaching against same Christ!

Again False.

Anything else?

Everything you said save one point is false. And that one point is proved from scripture and history as well.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Yeshua1, let me give you a challenge if you dare take it up. Study actual history. Study actually what the Catholic Church teaches from Catholic sources and then make up your own mind. But don't make blanket statements of which show your ignorance to what the Catholic Church actually teaches and their scripture source text. Maybe when you've educated yourself somewhat you will make better rebuttals than the same misinformed nonsence perpetrated since the inseption of Protestantism.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua1, let me give you a challenge if you dare take it up. Study actual history. Study actually what the Catholic Church teaches from Catholic sources and then make up your own mind. But don't make blanket statements of which show your ignorance to what the Catholic Church actually teaches and their scripture source text. Maybe when you've educated yourself somewhat you will make better rebuttals than the same misinformed nonsence perpetrated since the inseption of Protestantism.

the RCC does NOT even claim that a sinner can be saved by grace alone/thru faith alone, but MUST avail themselves of sacreamental grace in order to become "enough" like jesus, good enough. to have God absolve them in the end!

that IS vatican teaching! As per water Baptism, the mass the other 5 Graces, the sinners co operate and assist God in becoming pure enough to be absolved!

the RCC traditions/dogmas such as mary and her roles, assumption, immaculaue conception etc NOT found in the Bible... period...

the papacy NOT infallible when giving forth doctrines, as they were opposite the bible...

those are ALL facts!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

the RCC does NOT even claim that a sinner can be saved by grace alone/thru faith alone, but MUST avail themselves of sacreamental grace in order to become "enough" like jesus, good enough. to have God absolve them in the end!

You are mistaken. Catholic would be ok with faith alone if the definition of faith considered the fruits of that faith or good works. Lets look at the council of Trent

Canon 1.
If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law,[110] without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema.

Canon 2.
If anyone says that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may be able more easily to live justly and to merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he is able to do both, though with hardship and difficulty, let him be anathema.

Canon 3.
If anyone says that without the predisposing inspiration of the Holy Ghost[111] and without His help, man can believe, hope, love or be repentant as he ought,[112] so that the grace of justification may be bestowed upon him, let him be anathema.


Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.

Canon 12.
If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

It is clear then that catholic believe faith saves but that faith must produce fruit.

the RCC traditions/dogmas such as mary and her roles

Her roles are clearly shown in scripture.

assumption, immaculaue conception etc NOT found in the Bible... period...

I don't know what you mean by etc. But as for the assumption and immaculate conseption like the trinity they derive from what we know scripturally of Jesus Christ.

the papacy NOT infallible when giving forth doctrines, as they were opposite the bible...

First you don't know what infallibility means when conserning the Pope. And that is a fact. And secondly your facts are skewed.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are mistaken. Catholic would be ok with faith alone if the definition of faith considered the fruits of that faith or good works. Lets look at the council of Trent

It is clear then that catholic believe faith saves but that faith must produce fruit.

Her roles are clearly shown in scripture.
I don't know what you mean by etc. But as for the assumption and immaculate conseption like the trinity they derive from what we know scripturally of Jesus Christ.


First you don't know what infallibility means when conserning the Pope. And that is a fact. And secondly your facts are skewed.

officially, the Council ratified that IF one held to being justifed solely by faith alone in grace alone of God, they were accursed!

Also, that men MUST co operating/assist Gofd in the salvation process

that the Mass IS a propitation sacrifice each time given/taken

Those are right from the doctrines of trent!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

officially, the Council ratified that IF one held to being justifed solely by faith alone in grace alone of God, they were accursed!

Did you even read what I posted from Trent. When a protestant means alone he excludes the necissary fruit. We are not talking about a ratification look at what it says

Canon 12.
If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy,[117] which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Your confident Christ saved you? So, whooopi! Doesn't mean anything unless you do something about it.

Also, that men MUST co operating/assist Gofd in the salvation process

Are you his if you do not obey him? That is really what you are trying to say. "There is no requirement for me to obey."

that the Mass IS a propitation sacrifice each time given/taken

Now you are jumping to another topic you know nothing about. Stay on one subject! But that is your manner. Keep throwing accusations whether you know anything about them or not because other people have said something rather than studying the issue yourself.

 

[Yeshua1]

Did you even read what I posted from Trent. When a protestant means alone he excludes the necissary fruit. We are not talking about a ratification look at what it says
Your confident Christ saved you? So, whooopi! Doesn't mean anything unless you do something about it.

Jesus died in my stead, paid for all my sins, past/present/future, ALL I can do is place faith in Him to save me, and he did!

Are you his if you do not obey him? That is really what you are trying to say. "There is no requirement for me to obey."

that comes AFTER saved by grace! As a Chrsitian, will be serving the Lord out of love, and in the power of the Holy Spirit, IF I chose to do so!

Now you are jumping to another topic you know nothing about. Stay on one subject! But that is your manner. Keep throwing accusations whether you know anything about them or not because other people have said something rather than studying the issue yourself.

is the Mass a propiation sacrifice re enacted before God or not? Council of trent said it is!