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How does this doctrine effect the way we witness?
- Thread starter Joseph_Botwinick
- Start date
I am not sure why you have so much difficulty in grasping this. (Though I might imagine your refusal to find out what Calvinists believe is part of it).
The word is what gives life (John 6:63, 68). Peter confirms this in 1 Peter 1 when he talks about being born again by the word that was preached to you. Simply put, when they hear it, they will live (future, ongoing). There is nothing tricky here and nothing that contradicts anything Calvinism believes. You are determined to find a problem that does not exist.
Notice what the text says -- Those who hear will live. That is a true statement for Calvinists. It does not say that that is the beginning of life or the first instance of life. It does not say that those who hear are then made alive. That is what you would like for it to say. But it does not say that.
Careful reading of the text shows that your conclusion that dead men hear in order to be made alive is not a necessary deduction from the text. Stick with what the text says. Don't read your own precommitments into it.
The word is what gives life (John 6:63, 68). Peter confirms this in 1 Peter 1 when he talks about being born again by the word that was preached to you. Simply put, when they hear it, they will live (future, ongoing). There is nothing tricky here and nothing that contradicts anything Calvinism believes. You are determined to find a problem that does not exist.
Notice what the text says -- Those who hear will live. That is a true statement for Calvinists. It does not say that that is the beginning of life or the first instance of life. It does not say that those who hear are then made alive. That is what you would like for it to say. But it does not say that.
Careful reading of the text shows that your conclusion that dead men hear in order to be made alive is not a necessary deduction from the text. Stick with what the text says. Don't read your own precommitments into it.
Y
Yelsew
Guest
So then, Pastor Larry, you are agreeing that man is not regenerated in order that man can hear and believe. That is true is it not? Do you then also agree that regeneration is being born again and that being born again is the result of hearing the Word and Believing?
Many Cals will vehemently deny those statements.
And I notice you deftly dance around a concrete answer. Does hearing come before or after regeneraton in your Calvinist Ordo Salutis?
*I* would like for it to say? *MY CONCLUSION*? Please show me where I have said that to be my conclusion or my desire, sir? I CAN post your quote, which you are now peddling hard to distance yourself from. But you cannot show me making any such conclusion or expressing any such desire. Physician, heed your own counsel.
You guys are a little dense today
... too much food at Thanksgiving for you making you sleepy ... I stand by what I have said. If you are confused by it, it is only evidence that you are less familiar with this than you lead us to believe.
To hear is to be regenerated. Why is that difficult?? This passage is not addressing a cause effect relationship (as is evidenced by the lack of causal/resultative indicators). You are desparately trying to pin a lot on this passage but I don't see the reason why. The main emphasis is on the end times and the final resurrection. Which turns the question around for you: In the end, how will the dead hear if they are dead?? If they are first made alive and then rise from the dead, then the dead aren't really hearing. If the voice is what "livens" them, then my point stands exactly as I said it earlier.
I think you are the ones who need to start answering questions. Start with, Why use this passage about the end times as something else? Continue with answering, In the final resurrection, how will the dead hear?
I stand by what I have said. I haven't changed. As I said, the only difficulty is your unwillingness to understand what I actually said, rather than you wish I had said.
The truth of the matter is that you don't not have to believe that regeneration technically speaking precedces faith and repentance to be a Calvinist. Some believe that there is the effectual call is a unilateral, sovereignly given enablement to believe and repent which brings regeneration. This is the position that Lewis and Demerast argue for in the Integrative Theology I believe. The question is, "Does man's ability to believe stem from his innate abilities or does that ability come from God to a person who is morally unable to believe making it certain that he will believe?" The biblical answer is the latter.
Name one and cite the source. I would like to see what they say about it.
Not at all. I answered this before and below.
Your whole contention was based on this. You want this passage to be the inital giving of life to the spiritually dead person. That is your whole bone of contention with us. Surely you do not deny that do you??? Look back at your posts and see for yourself.
Time once again to remind the little Calvinist of what the scriptures actually say. The subject is John 5:24,25:
Notice that the subject is who has everlasting life and does not come into condemnation. The future resurrection? Yes, it appears in the chapter, but in the specific passage being discussed verse 25 says "AND NOW IS"! Do you know when "now" is, Pastor Larry? Or is that another one of those Calvinist redefinition of terms to mean opposite what it normally does, kinda like what you guys do with "all men"? Hmmm...sounds like Bill Clinton was probably a member of the Founders Movement in the SBC and a good Calvinist. "It all depends on what 'is' is." Here, it all depends on when 'Now' is.
Did you think v. 26ff was in a different context??
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
When you read teh context, vv. 24, 26, 27, 28, and 29 are all about the future judgment. It would do you well to remember that before you attack me for not knowing what the text says.
The point of the text is that a future judgment is coming in which Christ, who is now being rejected as not from God, will judge those who are rejecting because God has given him that responsibility. The "and now is" is a parenthetical designed to show that the present giving of life is a precursor of the life-giving that is to come. The life that is to come is what the focus of the text is.
And I notice you didn't yet answer the questions I asked about that life that is to come. I hope you will not delay.
John 5:23 so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. 25 "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26 "For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28 "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
When you read teh context, vv. 24, 26, 27, 28, and 29 are all about the future judgment. It would do you well to remember that before you attack me for not knowing what the text says.
The point of the text is that a future judgment is coming in which Christ, who is now being rejected as not from God, will judge those who are rejecting because God has given him that responsibility. The "and now is" is a parenthetical designed to show that the present giving of life is a precursor of the life-giving that is to come. The life that is to come is what the focus of the text is.
And I notice you didn't yet answer the questions I asked about that life that is to come. I hope you will not delay.
OUCH! The way you have yourself so twisted up, it hurts me just to look at it.
Well, I praise God that I am one of the dead who NOW IS raised to life! I am in the parentheses, Praise the Lord Jesus Christ! Everlasting life is mine! Why? Because he that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. I received Him! What a joy that I can look forward to that day of judgment without fear of being lost.
Perhaps it is you that is twisted. It doesn't look funny to me in the least. And having tested it with numerous others, it didn't look funny to them. Quite often, "twistedness" is in the eye of the beholder.
I praise God for the same thing. We can both be grateful that the doctrine of election is not dependent on whether or not we personally believe in it. Jesus Christ is the one who saves us. God is calling out for himself a people and we can rejoice in that together.
[ November 28, 2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Y
Yelsew
Guest
Post removed to address this issue privately. Remember folks ... if there are questions about the moderating, please PM me. I will get back with you as soon as possible. I have emailed Yelsew about his concerns and will seek resolution of them through that channel.
[ November 30, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
[ November 30, 2003, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
Not hardly. Believing "and now is" means now causes me nowhere as much pain as the twisting you come up with to make it mean "and some day will be" instead. </font>[/QUOTE]I never said "and now is" means "someday will be." Do not twist my words. You know better. Come on ... I am begging you ... let's have this conversation with decency.
You still haven't answered my question though. The point of the passage is on the end resurrection of the dead. The "and now is" says that what will happen at the end is happening now already. I think we can agree that the end is a phsyical revivification and the "now is" is a spiritual revivification. THe point of Christ is that both work the same way. AGreed??
Now here is the question: At the end time resurrection, will those people already be able to hear the voice even though they are dead?? Or will the voice be the thing that brings them back to life??
I can understand why you are hesitant to answer this. If I believed what you believe, I would be hesitant as well. IT seems clear from the passage that at the end times, it is the voice that will bring them back to life from teh dead. They are dead ... really dead ... and the voice is what brings them back to life. Then they come forth.
Spiritual life is the same way. They are dead ... really dead ... and the voice is what brings them to life. Then they come forth. As Christ says, "and now is" ... it is going on right now ...
[ November 30, 2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
AGreed with what?? You agree with me that at the last resurrection, the dead will be brought to life by the voice??? Then to make sense of the context, you must agree with that about the spiritual life given now, that the word is what brings them to life. That is what I said at the beginning and you disputed it.
I agree that life comes through the Word </font>[/QUOTE]Then why did you disagree with me when I said that?? I don't think you and I believe the same thing and I think you have repeatedly said that life comes through man making a choice to believe and repent, though I don't want to put words in your mouth.
My point about this passage is that Christ says that at the final resurrection (giving of life), life will be given when he speaks ... that is they will come to life at the sound of his voice. No prior state of consciousness is needed. And in the passage, he says the currect spiritual life giving is the same ... therefore, Christ is teaching that spiritual life (regeneration) comes at the sound of his voice; no prior state of consciousness is needed.
My point is that the dead -- the spiritually dead -- the unregenerate, if you will -- CAN hear the Word of God, which births (regenerates) us. This does not require a state of consciousness. But this does send a bowling ball down the Calvinists' alley where one of their principle pins is that the dead cannot hear. The dead DO hear the call of God by the Word of God. Don't add more to it, don't take from it. Hearing comes by the word of God according to Romans 10:17. Faith is the result.
Word of God spoken ---> Hearing that call of the word ---> Faith.
Word of God spoken ---> Hearing that call of the word ---> Faith.