How does your theology deal with the following

[percho]

scenario?

I will throw out something for thought.

30 / 33 AD

In 470 BC there was a man living in the Amazon forest and he died. Why did he die?
And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:16,17
.
Was he an unknowing Sabbath breaker? Probably. Is that why he died? I don't think so. Was he," Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.". Ps 51:5? Yep.

YLT John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


In 30 / 33 AD
There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, YLT Romans 8:1-3

Does what Jesus did in 30 / 33 AD benefit that man who died in the Amazon jungle 400 plus years before 30 / 33 AD?

How?

Mars Hill?


BTW

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20 YLT

I believe that in bold above was done before God rested on that first Sabbath Day. Adam most certainly did not cause it. Not of its will but because of Him - God.

 

[Iconoclast]

scenario?

I will throw out something for thought.

30 / 33 AD

In 470 BC there was a man living in the Amazon forest and he died. Why did he die?
And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:16,17
.
Was he an unknowing Sabbath breaker? Probably. Is that why he died? I don't think so. Was he," Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.". Ps 51:5? Yep.

YLT John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


In 30 / 33 AD
There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, YLT Romans 8:1-3

Does what Jesus did in 30 / 33 AD benefit that man who died in the Amazon jungle 400 plus years before 30 / 33 AD?

How?

Mars Hill?


BTW

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20 YLT

I believe that in bold above was done before God rested on that first Sabbath Day. Adam most certainly did not cause it. Not of its will but because of Him - God.

Most all such persons have perished in their sins having broken all ten commandments ,and they will be sent into the second death.
God is able to have mercy on a person if He sees fit,but for the most part all.perish in their sins

 

[AustinC]

Is God unjust in sending people to hell, even though they are ignorant of His law and have broken his law?

 

[percho]

Why was that man born?

Maybe I should have asked, what was the purpose of T-Rex? Why was he born, err hatched?

Exactly which side of death does judgement take place.

Exactly how does John 7:39 apply before and or after the glorification of Jesus?

How many men was God calling to see if they would believe or not, the day he called Abraham? Everybody or just Abraham according to the purpose of God.

Is this; That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; totally dependent upon this; Jesus being glorified in order for the Spirit to be available to be poured out?
Is that Spirit, the Spirit of Truth that will guide you into all truth John 16:13

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures. James 1:18

After this (afterward) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, (?The Remnant?) upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:16,17

Matt 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

Can not all of you see that, never the mind what theology you hold to, C or A or Whatever, all believe it is the man who must save himself?

Matt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why was that man born?

Maybe I should have asked, what was the purpose of T-Rex? Why was he born, err hatched?

Exactly which side of death does judgement take place.

Exactly how does John 7:39 apply before and or after the glorification of Jesus?

How many men was God calling to see if they would believe or not, the day he called Abraham? Everybody or just Abraham according to the purpose of God.

Is this; That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; totally dependent upon this; Jesus being glorified in order for the Spirit to be available to be poured out?
Is that Spirit, the Spirit of Truth that will guide you into all truth John 16:13

Joel 2:28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;

Joel 2:32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

having counselled, He did beget us with a word of truth, for our being a certain first-fruit of His creatures. James 1:18

After this (afterward) I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, (?The Remnant?) upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Acts 15:16,17

Matt 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

Can not all of you see that, never the mind what theology you hold to, C or A or Whatever, all believe it is the man who must save himself?

Matt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

No....God seeks and saves His sheep.....no more, no less.
Man does not save himself.
There is one verse that uses those words, but it is urging people towards coming to Jesus.

 

[percho]

No....God seeks and saves His sheep.....no more, no less.
Man does not save himself.
There is one verse that uses those words, but it is urging people towards coming to Jesus.

I agree with you.

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;

Would you care to put forth a % of what the number of, the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore, might be relative to the number of humans born of woman?

10%
30%
50%
90%

any %?

 

[AustinC]

I agree with you.

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;

Would you care to put forth a % of what the number of, the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore, might be relative to the number of humans born of woman?

10%
30%
50%
90%

any %?

Would you care to exegete the passage from Genesis 22? This will help everyone with context.

Genesis 22:13-19 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called the name of that place, “The Lord will provide”; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree with you.

That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore;

Would you care to put forth a % of what the number of, the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore, might be relative to the number of humans born of woman?

10%
30%
50%
90%

any %?

A percentage is not given. We are told it is so large it cannot be numbered
Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

 

[percho]

Would you care to exegete the passage from Genesis 22? This will help everyone with context.

Genesis 22:13-19 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called the name of that place, “The Lord will provide”; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba.

I think it is exegeted for us in Gal 3:29.

 

[AustinC]

I think it is exegeted for us in Gal 3:29.

I think you just said...no.

 

[AustinC]

I think it is exegeted for us in Gal 3:29.

So...now you have two passages to exegete. I look forward to you exegeting both and then explaining how they are connected.

Galatians 3:22-29 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

 

[percho]

A percentage is not given. We are told it is so large it cannot be numbered
Revelation 7:9
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Again I agree with you, yet when we look at the human race worldwide from say 33 AD it does not appear that we can see a great multitude of sheep, that no man can number. Look back from say 33 AD and all we can understand as sheep do not appear to me to be a great multitude.

It just seems to me there is something amiss with our understanding of the salvation of God.

To me scripture appears to imply a great influx of salvation, in the future yet it also appears to me that the future is relatively short.

BTW I value your opinion so let me ask you and any others who would like to chime in.

and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this -- judgment,
for the wages of the sin, death, and the gift of God, life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 6:23 YLT
Also you -- being dead in the trespasses and the sins, in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath -- as also the others, Eph 2:1-3

Why do we believe that God can save a man, dead in the trespasses and sins, but do not believe God can save a man, dead and buried? After all they are both dead. Here is what God told Adam: YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' OR to die you shall die - In other words in the day you eat, you will be dead in trespasses and sins awaiting the death.

Is it not because in reality we think the man has to be alive, so he can believe, to save himself? We do not believe God can raise him out of the dead and then save him.

What did Jesus believe? What was the obedience of faith of Jesus? Is it not what is stated in Heb 5:7,8 YLT? who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from (out of) death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

What think you?

 

[percho]

So...now you have two passages to exegete. I look forward to you exegeting both and then explaining how they are connected.

Galatians 3:22-29 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

I have 0 formal education. But if the seed of Abraham numbering as the stars and the sand are not the same as the - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, - then I never need to post again.

And will not.

 

[Iconoclast]

"percho,

To me scripture appears to imply a great influx of salvation, in the future yet it also appears to me that the future is relatively short.

I am not sure why you believe time is short? We might still be part of the early church.

Why do we believe that God can save a man, dead in the trespasses and sins, but do not believe God can save a man, dead and buried?[/QUOTE]

You quoted this verse earlier;

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:


[QUOTE]After all they are both dead. Here is what God told Adam: YLT and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' OR to die you shall die - In other words in the day you eat, you will be dead in trespasses and sins awaiting the death.

Adam died spiritually in that day, and physical death followed later.

Is it not because in reality we think the man has to be alive, so he can believe, to save himself? We do not believe God can raise him out of the dead and then save him.

Men never save themselves. The Spirit draws them effectually to Jesus.
Jesus saves those He has purposed to save.

What did Jesus believe? What was the obedience of faith of Jesus? Is it not what is stated in Heb 5:7,8 YLT? who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from (out of) death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience,

He learned by experience in His humanity.
He always submitted His self will to the will of the Father, there was no difference,;
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[AustinC]

I have 0 formal education. But if the seed of Abraham numbering as the stars and the sand are not the same as the - And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, - then I never need to post again.

And will not.

It doesn't matter if you have formal education. You can observe the passage and see what each passage is actually stating, within the context of the passage. Then compare the two passages to see similarities and differences. Anyone can do this. It's what the Berean's did with Paul.

In Genesis, God establishes a covenant with Abraham regarding physical (genetic) descendants. In Galatians, Paul is addressing those whom God has given the same gift of faith that he gave to Abraham. The seed referred to in Galatians is those who are the children of the promise, by faith, while the seed in Genesis is physical genetics.
Compare and contrast. Context is extremely important, which is why you should never just read one verse and compare it to another verse. Doing such will often end up in interpretive errors that create false teaching and bad theology.

 

[percho]

It doesn't matter if you have formal education. You can observe the passage and see what each passage is actually stating, within the context of the passage. Then compare the two passages to see similarities and differences. Anyone can do this. It's what the Berean's did with Paul.

In Genesis, God establishes a covenant with Abraham regarding physical (genetic) descendants. In Galatians, Paul is addressing those whom God has given the same gift of faith that he gave to Abraham. The seed referred to in Galatians is those who are the children of the promise, by faith, while the seed in Genesis is physical genetics.
Compare and contrast. Context is extremely important, which is why you should never just read one verse and compare it to another verse. Doing such will often end up in interpretive errors that create false teaching and bad theology.

Genesis 22:13-19 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called the name of that place, “The Lord will provide”; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba

Gal 3:14,16 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “

Fulfilled.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being fulfilled

 

[percho]

"percho,

He learned by experience in His humanity.
He always submitted His self will to the will of the Father, there was no difference,;
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Amen to that, for we had he not, dying we would surely be dead.

Heb 4:15 for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but one tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin;
Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh
Luke 22:43-46 And there appeared to him a messenger from heaven strengthening him; and having been in agony, he was more earnestly praying, and his sweat became, as it were, great drops of blood falling upon the ground. And having risen up from the prayer, having come unto the disciples, he found them sleeping from the sorrow, and he said to them, 'Why do ye sleep? having risen, pray that ye may not enter into temptation.'

In the days of his flesh, Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: - Was that not a real temptation of the flesh to sin?

and his sweat became, as it were, great drops of blood falling upon the ground - Was that, striving against sin?

καίπερ ὢν υἱὸς
And even being son (of God) he learned, from which he suffered, the obedience.
γενόμενος ὑπήκοος from Phil 2:8 Does γενόμενος imply not without effort or with effort?

 

[AustinC]

Genesis 22:13-19 And Abraham lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, behind him was a ram, caught in a thicket by his horns. And Abraham went and took the ram and offered it up as a burnt offering instead of his son. So Abraham called the name of that place, “The Lord will provide”; as it is said to this day, “On the mount of the Lord it shall be provided.” And the angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time from heaven and said, “By myself I have sworn, declares the Lord, because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies, and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.” So Abraham returned to his young men, and they arose and went together to Beersheba. And Abraham lived at Beersheba

Gal 3:14,16 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “

Fulfilled.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Being fulfilled

Is there a difference between offspring (genetic) in Genesis 22 and seed (children of the promise by faith) in Galatians 3? If not, is all humanity genetically connected to Abraham?
Percho, what is your position?

 

[percho]

Is there a difference between offspring (genetic) in Genesis 22 and seed (children of the promise by faith) in Galatians 3? If not, is all humanity genetically connected to Abraham?
Percho, what is your position?

My position is what God said:

and the number of the sons of Israel hath been as the sand of the sea, that is not measured nor numbered, and it hath come to pass in the place where it is said to them, Ye are not My people, it is said to them, Sons of the Living God; and gathered have been the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel together, and they have appointed to themselves one head, and have gone up from the land, for great is the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:10,11

 

[AustinC]

My position is what God said:

and the number of the sons of Israel hath been as the sand of the sea, that is not measured nor numbered, and it hath come to pass in the place where it is said to them, Ye are not My people, it is said to them, Sons of the Living God; and gathered have been the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel together, and they have appointed to themselves one head, and have gone up from the land, for great is the day of Jezreel. Hosea 1:10,11

You did not answer anything, but thank you for quoting scripture. It's always good to read God's word.