How does your theology deal with the following

[percho]

The view Christ's death, His shedding of Blood was not the means of salvation is a fiction.

For the second time, Percho, the fact Christ arose demonstrates God accepted His sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins. Period, end of story. Full Stop

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Rom 5:10
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. Rom 14:8.9

Question
IYHO

Was the resurrection of Christ necessary, for any man, from Adam to the last man born or woman, to receive incorruptible eternal life?

so also the Christ did not glorify himself to become chief priest, but He who spake unto him: 'My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;' as also in another place He saith, 'Thou art a priest -- to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;' who in the days of his flesh both prayers and supplications unto Him who was able to save him from death -- with strong crying and tears -- having offered up, and having been heard in respect to that which he feared, through being a Son, did learn by the things which he suffered -- the obedience, and having been made perfect, he did become to all those obeying him a cause of salvation age-during, having been addressed by God a chief priest, according to the order of Melchisedek, Heb 5:5-10

Questions
How and when did, the Christ, who did not glorify himself to become chief priest, become chief priest? Did it have anything to do with being raised out of the dead a life giving Spirit? Did his becoming chief priest require anointing? With what?
Consider-
Acts 2:32-36 'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; for David did not go up to the heavens, and he saith himself: The Lord saith to my lord, Sit thou at my right hand, till I make thy foes thy footstool; assuredly, therefore, let all the house of Israel know, that both Lord and Christ did God make him -- this Jesus whom ye did crucify.'

2 Tim 2:8 Remember Jesus Christ, raised out of the dead, of the seed of David, according to my good news,

The good news he spoke of in Gal., not of man.

 

[Van]

For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. Rom 5:10
For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. Rom 14:8.9
.

Excellent point. Since Christ's sacrifice was necessary for Christ to become our propitiation (or means of salvation) His living attributes as our risen Christ provides our heavenly blessings in Christ. Thus whether we are dead or alive, at His second coming we will be bodily resurrected.

But to repeat, His death, was required to become our propitiation, the means of our salvation.

 

[kyredneck]

How does scripture deal with those who never heard the gospel, and therefore died in unbelief. They are condemned.
Does God treat those who never heard the gospel unjustly? No, they face perfect justice, no more and no less.

So what exactly is the difference between your gospel and @Iconoclast gospel?

Hell, hell, hell....hell on the brain.

 

[atpollard]

Again I agree with you, yet when we look at the human race worldwide from say 33 AD it does not appear that we can see a great multitude of sheep, that no man can number. Look back from say 33 AD and all we can understand as sheep do not appear to me to be a great multitude.

Just a small point of information:

50% of all of the human beings that have ever lived in the history of the world from Adam until the present time are still alive today. Over the next 20 years, more people will be born than are now living. So if God had saved NOBODY from Adam until 2020 and just saved everyone born from 2020 to 2040, that would still add up to one third of the total population that had ever lived and close to 8 billion people.

Have you ever tried to count to 1 million? Imagine trying to do it 1000 times. All I am saying is that “the fields are ripe for harvest”.

 

[Van]

So what exactly is the difference between your gospel and @Iconoclast gospel?

Hell, hell, hell....hell on the brain.

You should study "Hell" and realize you have Hades and Gehenna on the brain.

I have carefully and fully expressed my understand that "saving faith" is our faith that God chooses to credit as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

I expect Icon believes in "the Gift of Faith" instilled via Irresistible Grace. I think that view is a fiction.
Second, I expect Icon believes in "Total Spiritual Inability" so the Fallen are not able to seek God or trust in Christ effectively.

I could plow through Unconditional Election and the Calvinist view of Limited Reconciliation, but all of this is sort of off topic.

Here is my view, again, of the topic issue:
How does scripture deal with those who never heard the gospel, and therefore died in unbelief. They are condemned.
Does God treat those who never heard the gospel unjustly? No, they face perfect justice, no more and no less.

 

[kyredneck]

Here is my view, again, of the topic issue:
How does scripture deal with those who never heard the gospel, and therefore died in unbelief. They are condemned.
Does God treat those who never heard the gospel unjustly? No, they face perfect justice, no more and no less.

You're just as cold as any Calvinist.

 

[Van]

You're just as cold as any Calvinist.

Hardly, my view is biblical, Calvinism misses the mark four times out of five. To defend such rubbish takes a cold cold heart, willing to misrepresent and ignore scripture after scripture, and simply disparage those presenting biblical doctrine. Anyway, that is how this warm and compassionate believer sees it.

 

[kyredneck]

rubbish

Yes, that's exactly what the hardline restrictivism you're espousing is...rubbish.

 

[Van]

Yes, that's exactly what the hardline restrictivism you're espousing is...rubbish.

I believe your view is rubbish too. Now if you want to climb out of the sandbox, have at it.

hardline restrictivism = Biblical Doctrine

Everyone is condemned for unbelief, because we are made sinners, and to be redeemed from the realm of darkness, God must credit our faith as righteousness.

 

[AustinC]

I have carefully and fully expressed my understand that "saving faith" is our faith that God chooses to credit as righteousness. Romans 4:4-5, Romans 4:23-24.

Your verses in Romans 4 do not support human merited belief as you teach.

I have highlighted your works based teaching that gives you the right to boast. All readers can clearly see what you teach.

 

[percho]

Gal 3:22 YLT but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin <dying thou dost die>, that the promise <of the Spirit V 14 ?the Spirit of Truth?>, by faith of Jesus Christ, may be given to those believing.

Now what is the only thing that could take place that would remove one from being under sin, under dying thou dost die?

The dying of the one and only, one, who knew no sin, even the sin of not learning and becoming obedient unto death even the death of the cross. He had to give his life, pour out his soul unto death and he did that when he said Father, unto your hands, I commit the spirit of me. He died in the flesh and the soul of him was in the state of Hades, the place of death.

Did that give life to anyone who and experienced, dying thou dost die? Did that keep the next person born of woman to be born in a state other than PS 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. KJV?

What had to take place in order that they could be made alive? Could the dead spirit less Christ in Hades make them alive? Could the dead Christ in Hades be high priest, according to the order of Melchisedek,

Acts 2:31 “he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Was Christ dead or alive for three days?

Acts 2:32,33 “This Jesus God has raised up,(out of the dead) of which we are all witnesses.“Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.


John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
John 6:39 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 10:26 but ye do not believe, for ye are not of my sheep,


So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec Heb 5:5,6
Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. 1 Peter 1:21

Did being raised from the dead by the Father have anything to do with Christ being glorified to be called High Priest after the order of Melchisedec?

 

[Barry Johnson]

No....God seeks and saves His sheep.....no more, no less.
Man does not save himself.
There is one verse that uses those words, but it is urging people towards coming to Jesus.

As Paul is the apostle to Gentiles we should conclude that the absence of mentioning 'sheep ' that the sheep are Jews .Especially given the context of when the term ' Sheep ' is mentioned.
Matthew 10:6

“But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”

Matthew 15:24
King James Version

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel

You were neither lost or a sheep .This is the description of us gentiles.
11¶Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

 

[Marooncat79]

scenario?

I will throw out something for thought.

30 / 33 AD

In 470 BC there was a man living in the Amazon forest and he died. Why did he die?
And Jehovah God layeth a charge on the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden eating thou dost eat; and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.' Gen 2:16,17
.
Was he an unknowing Sabbath breaker? Probably. Is that why he died? I don't think so. Was he," Lo, in iniquity I have been brought forth, And in sin doth my mother conceive me.". Ps 51:5? Yep.

YLT John 7:39 and this he said of the Spirit, which those believing in him were about to receive; for not yet was the Holy Spirit, because Jesus was not yet glorified.


In 30 / 33 AD
There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, YLT Romans 8:1-3

Does what Jesus did in 30 / 33 AD benefit that man who died in the Amazon jungle 400 plus years before 30 / 33 AD?

How?

Mars Hill?


BTW

for to vanity was the creation made subject -- not of its will, but because of Him who did subject it -- in hope, Rom 8:20 YLT

I believe that in bold above was done before God rested on that first Sabbath Day. Adam most certainly did not cause it. Not of its will but because of Him - God.

Why do we constantly question the character and goodness of God?

 

[percho]

Why do we constantly question the character and goodness of God?

My thought exactly. Just what does the name Jesus mean.

I'd bet my life that it wasn't up to the man in the Amazon jungle to save himself because Adam brought sin and death into the world. Somehow I feel God has him covered. And I've got a feeling it has to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

 

[AustinC]

My thought exactly. Just what does the name Jesus mean.

I'd bet my life that it wasn't up to the man in the Amazon jungle to save himself because Adam brought sin and death into the world. Somehow I feel God has him covered. And I've got a feeling it has to do with the death and resurrection of Jesus.

Feelings are fickle...

 

[atpollard]

Just what does the name Jesus mean.

I am pretty sure that it doesn't mean anything. It is the transliteration into English of the Latin version of the Greek version of a Hebrew name that has the meaning "God saves".

 

[percho]

I am pretty sure that it doesn't mean anything. It is the transliteration into English of the Latin version of the Greek version of a Hebrew name that has the meaning "God saves".

I just had the following in mind. Not necessarily a definition I guess.

and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[atpollard]

I just had the following in mind. Not necessarily a definition I guess.

and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.

Sorry, I tend to be over literal.