How Error Spreads...Do Not Listen To Men Teachers Even If They Are God Given

[Zaatar71]

It only takes one fire starter to light the fire of error. A false teacher starts error by saying things like we see here on Baptistboard!
The error gets picked up, and added to by others and truth is attacked. Here are some false firestarted errors-

The Bible says; Eph4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

In contrast to this we see people post these false ideas=

1] So you trust the words of man over the words of God.

2] You are too intelligent to be led around by religionists who promote the writings of men, all of which corrupt the sound teaching of the Bible. I am speaking of Calvinism here.
3] I do not see "what is written" to need additional teachings.

4] They hold a type of Gnosticism in that the Bible is inferior to a "secret knowledge" revealed through "God-given" teachers.

5] We can choose not to lean on our understanding but on every word that comes forth from God OR we can choose among the various understandings that men think is really taught by the Bible.We cannot do both.

 

[Zaatar71]

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?


31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Men teach other men in the bible.

 

[Zaatar71]

Acts18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.
24 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.


25 This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.


26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

 

[JonC]

The problem with leaning on one's understanding rather than every word that comes from God (other than the obvious - that we are commanded not to - is that each sect decides that their leaders are "God given teachers". That is a mark of a cult.


Christians, on the other hand, have God's own words. A Christoan teacher is one who dies not expand God's wirds but teaches God's words.

Your examole proves this. Apollos knew only of John's Baptism. It is on this knowledge that Aquila and Priscilla expounded (Apollos did not know the gospel of Christ).

You assume that those two taught Apollos something other than woukd be recorded in God's Word.

You made this same mistake last week when you missed that Phillip explained to the European how the things in the Old Testament had been fulfilled in Christ. You assume he taught something beyond God's own words.


We know this because we are commanded to test doctrine not against what men who hold that doctrine think is taught but by God's own words.

Another problem is you misrepresent what Scripture telks us about God giving us teachers. The context was God giving some as teachers within their congregation.


The biggest problem, however, with your theory is that you ultimately put yourself in the place of God. You are deciding, among the various things men say the Bible teaches, which men to follow. You have chosen your fate as one chooses a fictional book. You pick men who agree with you and say "they are God given teachers" whike condemning other men that other people view as "God given teachers".


And you merely regurgitate their conclusions. You borrow their belief but have no firm true belief of your own. You proved this when you coukd not explain how you get from God's words to what you believe those words teach.

Renember....I asked you a very simple question :

If God removed our sins and put them on Jesus then why did He have to punish thise sins?

You ran away from that one and started this thread. Did you have some special revelation that the man you choose, that tell you what the Bible "really" teaches, are correct? Did an angel give them magic glasses to read this tablet containing these teachings not really in God's Word?

 

[JonC]

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?


31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Men teach other men in the bible.

Again, Philip guided the Ethiopian to understand how the Old Testament was about Christ. You assume Philip told the man things God did not record in Scripture.

God does give some as teachers within the congregations. BUT they are to teach God's Word, not some superstitious myth as what the Bible "really" teaches.

Believe it or not, God is competent.

 

[JonC]

. . . ,teaching the word of God . . .

YES!!! Teaching what? Doctrine men think is really taught by God's Word? NO!
Teaching the Word of God.

I wish more professing Christians would believe the Word of God ratger than myths and theories various men and sects hold that the Bible "really" teaches. But it is as it shoukd be, I guess, in accordance with God's plan. Narrow is the way.

 

[Zaatar71]

Denying that God uses men to teach others, as if a person could not study scripture, and at the same time compare what they found, with what previous godly teachers taught is what we are taught in scripture itself. Those who say otherwise ,pervert scripture. It can happen in any area of scripture, but in our day it happens against Calvinistic teachers, From the Reformers and Puritans to modern teachers of the doctrines of grace. many have a hatred for the teaching, so they go all out, to attempt to discredit it. They cannot at anytime refute the links, so they try and discredit them , to no avail!

 

[Zaatar71]

The problem with leaning on one's understanding rather than every word that comes from God (other than the obvious - that we are commanded not to - is that each sect decides that their leaders are "God given teachers". That is a mark of a cult.

Here we have one of the false teachers, suggesting that God given teachers, are the same as Cult teachers. This is not an Honest post, is it?

Christians, on the other hand, have God's own words. A Christoan teacher is one who dies not expand God'swirds but teaches God's words.

Now, we get the doubletalk, because he cannot actually defend his false ideas, so he makes as if he held to the idea of godly teachers.
By the way, could you get a bigger phone or post from a computer keyboard>
From this post alone---Christoan, wirds, examole woukd telks coukd Renember..thise,,,If your fingers are too fat, get to a bigger keyboard

Your examole proves this. Apollos knew only of John's Baptism. It is on this knowledge that Aquila and Priscilla expounded (Apollos did not know the gospel of Christ).
You assume that those two taught Apollos something other than woukd be recorded in God's Word.

You assumed ,I assumed that. Aquila taught Apollos gospel truth to improve his understanding and teach him what he did not know.

You made this same mistake last week when you missed that Phillip explained to the European how the things in the Old Testament had been fulfilled in Christ. You assume he taught something beyond God's own words.

No, I clearly said that beginning in Isa.53, he opened the text up.I said that last week, and I say the same thing again now;
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. Isa. 53 did not name Jesus, by name, but Philp began at the text, then taught him how it was about Jesus. You did not let me post in your special little thread, you said something about me not being honest. Looks as if you are not being honest here!

We know this because we are commanded to test doctrine not against what men who hold that doctrine think is taught but by God's own words.

More nonsense;Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

Another problem is you misrepresent what Scripture telks us about God giving us teachers. The context was God giving some as teachers within their congregation.

They did teach in the assembly, and they did teach house to house

The biggest problem, however, with your theory is that you ultimately put yourself in the place of God.

Here we go, you now resort to your condescending insults once again, with foolish posting

You are deciding, among the various things men say the Bible teaches, which men to follow.

Each one of us determines that. No one in their right mind would follow your strange ideas. I am not going to let you decide who se teaching is biblical, or your frequent rewrites of history. Martin and others expose your falsehoods every single day.

You have chosen your fate as one chooses a fictional book.

Your insults are not welcome. Your opinion was not asked for. You have already confessed your ideas on these truths. They are sad indeed, nevertheless, thanks so much for sharing so we can know error when we see it.

You pick men who agree with you and say "they are God given teachers" whike condemning other men that other people view as "God given teachers".

Correct. We all decide who is solid, and who is not.Most of the Puritans have much solid teaching of scripture to offer. I cannot think of anything you post that has value, as you attack truth every day/

And you merely regurgitate their conclusions.

That is your opinion and accusation. You think it will discredit what I and other Cals post. It shows a level of desperation on your part.

You borrow their belief but have no firm true belief of your own.

That is yet another accusation, like when you determine if I or Martin have biblical views. We both see that you are one of the last people who could even make a sound judgment on that. The fact that you insult Cals, show your disdain for truth, and those who hold it.

You proved this when you coukd not explain how you get from God's words to what you believe those words teach.

All of the Cals on here have done that. Because you and Silverhair, ,van and Charlie, cannot see it,Does not mean that we have not offered you truth. In fact your foolish posts show us why what we believe is true, even more.

Renember....I asked you a very simple question :

If God removed our sins and put them on Jesus then why did He have to punish thise sins?

You posted you do not believe God punishes sins, so I have no need to respond to you.
You said I cannot show what i believe from scripture, so I have no need to explain anything to you.
You said I was not honest, so I have no need to post anything to you.
You said I was not a Calvinist, so I have no need to post anything to you.

You ran away from that one and started this thread. Did you have some special revelation that the man you choose, that tell you what the Bible "really" teaches, are correct? Did an angel give them magic glasses to read this tablet containing these teachings not really in God's Word?

Work on getting to a keyboard, your phone is not getting it done.

 

[JonC]

Denying that God uses men to teach others . . .

I never said that. In fact I said the opposite (I said that God gives some as teachers to congregations).
What I pointed out was that the Christian teacher teaches God's words (like those you mentioned from the Bible).

This is why we are commanded to test doctrine against "what is written", lest we stray from "the faith once given" and lean on our own understanding rather than every word that comes from God and find ourselves carried away by philosophy.

How do you know the men you have chosen as teachers are correct? Maybe one of thise you overlooked or ignored are really right about what the Bible teaches.

Or maybe the Bible teaches "what is written" and God given teachers stick to God's word like those in Scripture (showing how the Old Testament foreshadowing the new, the re-creation of man, etc.).

 

[Zaatar71]

I never said that. In fact I said the opposite (I said that God gives some as teachers to congregations).
What I pointed out was that the Christian teacher teaches God's words (like those you mentioned from the Bible).

JohnC , you cannot have it both ways! So which is it? Did the Puritans, and reformers teach scripture...not perfectly, but nevertheless as gifts to the churches? Are you suggesting Puritans did not teach the bible??? I posted from John Brown of Haddington the other day, it had so much scripture I am almost positive that the anti cals, did not read it! So what are you saying JohnC, do you see how you are saying both things, read, them do not read them?

This is why we are commanded to test doctrine against "what is written", lest we stray from "the faith once given" and lean on our own understanding rather than every word that comes from God and find ourselves carried away by philosophy.

Again, are you suggesting the trusted guides to not look at scripture? If you did go to bible school they would laugh you out of the class if you said that

How do you know the men you have chosen as teachers are correct?

I said I check what I have studied to see if they saw the same thing. Other Cals have said the same thing.

Maybe one of thise you overlooked or ignored are really right about what the Bible teaches.

Or maybe the Bible teaches "what is written" and God given teachers stick to God's word like those in Scripture (showing how the Old Testament foreshadowing the new, the re-creation of man, etc.).

No, you are trying to cover that you posted originally we should not read "books of written"

 

[JonC]

JohnC , you cannot have it both ways! So which is it? Did the Puritans, and reformers teach scripture...not perfectly, but nevertheless as gifts to the churches? Are you suggesting Puritans did not teach the bible??? I posted from John Brown of Haddington the other day, it had so much scripture I am almost positive that the anti cals, did not read it! So what are you saying JohnC, do you see how you are saying both things, read, them do not read them?

Again, are you suggesting the trusted guides to not look at scripture? If you did go to bible school they would laugh you out of the class if you said that

I said I check what I have studied to see if they saw the same thing. Other Cals have said the same thing.

No, you are trying to cover that you posted originally we should not read "books of written"

The Puritians, Reformers, Arminians, Methodists, and Catholics all teach some Scripture. That is not the problem.

Why pick Calvinists over Catholics? Because you believe they are God given teachers. But Catholics believe that of their leaders as well. Why not Arminianism? James Arminius certainly was a better theologian than Calvin (better than most Puritians). Arminians believe their leaders are God given teachers.

You are picking a camp based on that sect teaching what you believe, or your understanding of what the Bible teaches. You have no subjective authority for your faith (you cannot turn to God's Word to defend your understanding of the Cross, but only turn to men who reinforce your understanding).


I am saying that no teacher is above God. We are told to test doctrine against what? Our understanding or every word that comes forth from God?

You choose to test what a sect tells you the Bible teaches against the confessions that sect holds. That is wrong. Every sect can do that.

But you cannot see that because you have not worked out the belief you want to hold. You only hold the conclusions. You can't get from God's words to your conclusions yourself.

You proved that by your inability to answer very simole questions regarding how one goes from "Christ bore our sins" to "Christ experienced God's wrath".

I know how the men who tell you what to believe got there (because they wrote about it). But you have no idea.


Here is your unanswerable question again (reworded):

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[JonC]

@Zaatar71

The first thing you should have done when reading doctrines (by any sect) was to open your Bibke and see where they differ from God's words. I can't fault you for not doing do because neither did I when I believed Calvinism.

BUT I can fault you for continuing. You should have investigated, when you started considering what your sect says the Bible really teaches, exactly how they got from God's words to their conclusions. You did not do this, which is why you cannot explain that journey yourself (it is somebody else's journey, somebody else's belief...you just accept their conclusions).

This will answer part of their journey (their presuppositions):

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[Zaatar71]

@Zaatar71

The first thing you should have done when reading doctrines (by any sect) was to open your Bibke and see where they differ from God's words. I can't fault you for not doing do because neither did I when I believed Calvinism.

BUT I can fault you for continuing. You should have investigated, when you started considering what your sect says the Bible really teaches, exactly how they got from God's words to their conclusions. You did not do this, which is why you cannot explain that journey yourself (it is somebody else's journey, somebody else's belief...you just accept their conclusions).

This will answer part of their journey (their presuppositions):

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

Thanks for trying. I believe you are doing the best you can, but are confused very badly.
You have no idea of what I believe fully, or how I got there.
You have tried to guess, but you have missed by miles. You tried, thanks but by your posts I can see you have no remedy. You are similar to Silverhair, and Van. They try also. Thanks for trying!

 

[JonC]

Thanks for trying. I believe you are doing the best you can, but are confused very badly.
You have no idea of what I believe fully, or how I got there.
You have tried to guess, but you have missed by miles. You tried, thanks but by your posts I can see you have no remedy. You are similar to Silverhair, and Van. They try also. Thanks for trying!

I know what you have stayed you believe and that you have proven yourself unable to defend that belief by showing how you get there. That is how we know you are just borrowing a belief.

You also told us this when you admitted that the authority for your faith is Refirmed confessions and Reformed teachers.

We also know this because every time you are asked to defend your belief you attack others.

If I (@Silverhair and @Van ) hold wrong beliefs, so what? That still does not make you correct. But every time you are simply asked how you get from God's words to what you have been taught those words teach you attack those asking. You never account for your own faith. Why? Because you can't. You merely regurgitate what men have told you to memorize.


If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[Zaatar71]

I know what you have stayed you believe and that you have proven yourself unable to defend that belief by showing how you get there.

I can and do speak about the living hope I have in Jesus.

That is how we know you are just borrowing a belief.

You cannot know my heart, and it looks like you are just trying to insult me and other Calvinists as you do on a daily basis. Have you noticed than not one of the others who run this website insult people like you try to do.

You also told us this when you admitted that the authority for your faith is Refirmed confessions and Reformed teachers.

I have never posted such an idea, in fact I posted from a biblical confession of faith, that you did not see, or you did not bother to read.I will post it again, for the benefit of any who might have read your false statement concerning me, and what I believe. This link shows the exact opposite of what you say which does not surprise me. Here it is once again. It clearly says that the scriptures given and illuminated by the Holy Spirit alone give light; The 1689 Confession of Faith
Of the Holy Scriptures
1 The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible a rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light b of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. c Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in
divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and after- ward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto d writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto
his people being now ceased.
( a 2Ti 3:15-17; Isa 8:20; Luk 16:29,31; Eph 2:20; b Rom 1:19-21; 2:14-15;Psa 19:1-3; cHeb 1:1; d Pro 22:19-21; Rom 15:4; 2Pe 1:19-20)

That is what I confess also. I made it in bold print so you can see what you missed. It does not say what you claim. That is why you are not a poster who can be trusted at all. That might be why you are drifting from truth to your own understanding, that no one else holds.

We also know this because every time you are asked to defend your belief you attack others.

Not really. Your posts are very dishonest and condescending. At first i tried to give you room to vent your frustration,like what Ben and Silverhair do. But I see you do the same as you are an anti cal, like those other men. When you do such things on such a forum I have to decide how to respond. I laid back first, but now I see for the sake of others ,I have to point out your dishonesty which you have displayed several times. Dishonesty ins not a fruit of the Spirit, but is of the flesh.

 

[JonC]

I can and do speak about the living hope I have in Jesus.

You cannot know my heart, and it looks like you are just trying to insult me and other Calvinists as you do on a daily basis. Have you noticed than not one of the others who run this website insult people like you try to do.

I have never posted such an idea, in fact I posted from a biblical confession of faith, that you did not see, or you did not bother to read.I will post it again, for the benefit of any who might have read your false statement concerning me, and what I believe. This link shows the exact opposite of what you say which does not surprise me. Here it is once again. It clearly says that the scriptures given and illuminated by the Holy Spirit alone give light; The 1689 Confession of Faith
Of the Holy Scriptures
1 The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible a rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light b of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. c Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in
divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and after- ward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto d writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God’s revealing his will unto
his people being now ceased.
( a 2Ti 3:15-17; Isa 8:20; Luk 16:29,31; Eph 2:20; b Rom 1:19-21; 2:14-15;Psa 19:1-3; cHeb 1:1; d Pro 22:19-21; Rom 15:4; 2Pe 1:19-20)

That is what I confess also. I made it in bold print so you can see what you missed. It does not say what you claim. That is why you are not a poster who can be trusted at all. That might be why you are drifting from truth to your own understanding, that no one else holds.

Not really. Your posts are very dishonest and condescending. At first i tried to give you room to vent your frustration,like what Ben and Silverhair do. But I see you do the same as you are an anti cal, like those other men. When you do such things on such a forum I have to decide how to respond. I laid back first, but now I see for the sake of others ,I have to point out your dishonesty which you have displayed several times. Dishonesty ins not a fruit of the Spirit, but is of the flesh.

You are again merely insulting to avoid the fact you have not explained how you get from God's words to your conclusions.

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[Zaatar71]

You are again merely insulting to avoid the fact you have not explained how you get from God's words to your conclusions.

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

No insult, just posting an observation that many others have noticed. Do you ever read your posts to Calvinists, and others?

 

[JonC]

No insult, just posting an observation that many others have noticed. Do you ever read your posts to Calvinists, and others?

No, merely insults.

You have not made even one observation about my stated belief that is unbiblical.

I have only asked you to explain how you get from God's words to your conclusions. That is a reasonable question. But thus far you have no clue, which suggests you only accept what you are told to believe without testing the teaching.

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[Zaatar71]

No, merely insults.

Not how everyone else see's it.

You have not made even one observation about my stated belief that is unbiblical.

I have said several times, you are welcome to what you believe. I am welcome to avoid error and dishonest posting,

I have only asked you to explain how you get from God's words to your conclusions.

My posts stand for themselves. I do not need to answer your strange accusations

That is a reasonable question. But thus far you have no clue, which suggests you only accept what you are told to believe without testing the teaching.

Yet, another slander. Is that your spiritual gift?

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?

 

[JonC]

Not how everyone else see's it.

I have said several times, you are welcome to what you believe. I am welcome to avoid error and dishonest posting,

My posts stand for themselves. I do not need to answer your strange accusations

Yet, another slander. Is that your spiritual gift?

It does not matter to me how everybody else sees it.

You claim my belief is wrong but you have not been able to find anything wrong in my belief
The only criticism you offered was that it was only what God has given us in His Word and you ridiculed me for speaking of God as clothing us in righteousness and Christ in our iniquity.

Other than that you merely offer insults.

Even here you only insult in an attempt to avoid offering an account of how you get from God's words to your understanding. It seems you can't, but instead simply believed the conclusions of Calvinists without grasping how those conclusions came into being.

Here is just one question any Calvinist can answer, bit those merely desiring to be a Calvinist cannot as they do not actually understand Calvinism (which is why I chose this question . . . I knew you had no clue):

If on judgment day God has made us new creations conformed to the image of Christ, we have died to sin and are perfected in Him, in whom there is no condemnation, and God judges us as righteous BUT God never punished the sins of the "old man" who no longer exists, what would be the issue?