I believe pro-Christian is pro-Christ. There is the issue that Scripture itself places these secular powers as enemies of God.
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How Far Are The Pro-Vaxers Willing To Go?
- Thread starter RipponRedeaux
- Start date
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Except, for example, that Acts 18:10 specifically identifies key people with political power as belonging to God and in a position to actively protect his apostle.
And similarly in Romans 13:4 they are placed as God’s servants to do good to those who do good and punish wrongdoers.
For someone like yourself, who has served in the military and still works government contracts, doesn't there seem to be some serious inconsistency here in saying that the secular power you as a Christian choose to serve is an enemy of God?
One hallmark of the Dem Progressive Left is that restraining evil is evil; another is that restraining good is good. This is in part because they have the two quite confused.
Again, identify specifically what the GOP is doing to deceive believers so that all may benefit. Just saying that they must be because of some general understanding of Scripture isn’t sufficient.
If we were talking about uniting the church with the state, that would be another matter entirely. But this is nothing like that.
And that of the Roman Empire that persecuted and killed them?
Acts 18:10 For I am with you, and no one will lay a hand on you to hurt you, because I have many people in this city.”
Why do you believe this is speaking of a sect within the Roman government rather than individual people God will use to protect Paul?
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
The Dems Progressive Left would love to be like the Roman Empire in that way. I'm suggesting that the stance expressed in your posts is just the sort of thing that would lead unnecessarily to that sort of thing. The GOP is the sort of thing standing in the way of that sort of thing.
I doubt my stance that people should make their own decisions about their health, laws should follow the US Constitution, and men should obey the authority over them unless that obedience is disobedience to God leads towards totalitarianism. That just does not make sense and it sounds like you are simply making stuff up because you disagree with me.
I agree the GOP stands stains bad stuff. Do does the DNC. But I don't care what a secular worldly power stands against. I want to know what they stand for.
Neither party stands for God, for Christ, and for the interests of the gospel.
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Nope, not making stuff up. Just asking for specifics regarding the stance that the GOP is anti-God, anti-Christ. Perhaps you can show you are right.
But notice that for your stance here, which seems to be missing a word or two making it somewhat unclear, you stated nothing about the Gospel:
“I doubt my stance that people should make their own decisions about their health, laws should follow the US Constitution, and men should obey the authority over them unless that obedience is disobedience to God leads towards totalitarianism.”
I’m suggesting that God does not expect or even want secular government to preach the Gospel, that God can nevertheless have people in government positions to protect those who do preach the Gospel, and that God can have people in authority to rightly commend those who do good and punish wrongdoers.
I can easily see where the DNC would foil all of that. How the GOP would foil it is very unclear. They seem to have a stance much closer to yours as quoted above.
Yes, I can show I am right (secular political parties are by definition secular.....God may use them but they are powers of this World).
But that is not where I was saying you were making stuff up.
You specifically said my stated position would lead towards a Roman Empire type of government.
My stated position is :
1. People should make their own health choices.
2. The US Constitution should be upheld.
3. Men should obey their secular government unless that obedience would be disobedience to God.
4. God brings up and tears down secular governments for His purposes.
5. Secular political parties are by definition "powers" of this World.
What you would be correct in saying is that you disagree with my position that the government should not mandate vaccines to the public but the vaccines do protect against serious illness and death from covid.
And you would be correct to say that because we disagree about the effectiveness of the covid vaccines you have taken liberties to connect my views with policies we both reject.
IMHO
Since Genesis 1 the following is all we have seen on this earth.
because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
Jesus when he was about thirty years of age came speaking the gospel of the kingdom of God. Relative to man, including Jesus Christ, for entrance into that kingdom that is inheritance, required life from the dead, incorruptible. The promise of God made before the beginning of time Titus 1:2 Hope of eternal life. This is spoken of Jesus Christ in Romans 6:9 Acts 13:34 Acts 2:31 1 Cor 15:20,23 The resurrected Jesus is that. The Faith. Substance of things hoped for evidence of things not seen. That is the great salvation spoken of in Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God), and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; - Jesus told the apostles to preach the kingdom of God. Now verse 5. For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world (inhabited earth) to come, whereof we speak. - From Genesis the inhabited earth has been influenced by God's angels and also by the devil's angels and will be until Rev 20:1,2 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Lord teach us to pray. Methinks, we and myself especially, should do a lot more praying as Jesus taught them.
Que sera, sera
Since Genesis 1 the following is all we have seen on this earth.
because we have not the wrestling with blood and flesh, but with the principalities, with the authorities, with the world-rulers of the darkness of this age, with the spiritual things of the evil in the heavenly places;
Jesus when he was about thirty years of age came speaking the gospel of the kingdom of God. Relative to man, including Jesus Christ, for entrance into that kingdom that is inheritance, required life from the dead, incorruptible. The promise of God made before the beginning of time Titus 1:2 Hope of eternal life. This is spoken of Jesus Christ in Romans 6:9 Acts 13:34 Acts 2:31 1 Cor 15:20,23 The resurrected Jesus is that. The Faith. Substance of things hoped for evidence of things not seen. That is the great salvation spoken of in Hebrews 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord (Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God), and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; - Jesus told the apostles to preach the kingdom of God. Now verse 5. For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world (inhabited earth) to come, whereof we speak. - From Genesis the inhabited earth has been influenced by God's angels and also by the devil's angels and will be until Rev 20:1,2 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Lord teach us to pray. Methinks, we and myself especially, should do a lot more praying as Jesus taught them.
Que sera, sera
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
No, I wasn't intending to conflate a vaccine position with a position on involvement with or in government. Sorry it came across that way. Probably should've done this in a different thread.
Without getting into it in more detail, it seems we fundamentally disagree 1) that Christians, though not necessarily all, should be involved in government, and 2) that government should not be involved in promoting the Gospel.
Leaving government to only those who are anti-God, anti-Christ sounds like a good formula for a self-fulfilling prophecy. “See, I told you the government is anti-God, anti-Christ.” No duh.
That's the stance I was addressing.
I'm not sure to what extent we disagree.No, I wasn't intending to conflate a vaccine position with a position on involvement with or in government. Sorry it came across that way. Probably should've done this in a different thread.
Without getting into it in more detail, it seems we fundamentally disagree 1) that Christians, though not necessarily all, should be involved in government, and 2) that government should not be involved in promoting the Gospel.
Leaving government to only those who are anti-God, anti-Christ sounds like a good formula for a self-fulfilling prophecy. “See, I told you the government is anti-God, anti-Christ.” No duh.
I believe Christians are called to represent Christ whever they find themselves. I do believe secular politics is concerned about affairs of the World, but that is natural because secular politics is a worldly power.
But I do not believe a Christian should abstain from politics. As a Christian I believe that I should abstain from politics because Hod has given me that conviction. To me, politics too often divide and becomes barriers. I believe Christians should mot be involved in politics.
BUT I would not say Christians should abstain from politics. I have repeatedly said I am glad we have Christian politicians. I know this sounds contradictory, but it isn't.
I believe Christians should not engage in secular politics but I do mot impose that belief on others. Christians should follow God. If God calls them into politics then they shouldn't hesitate to follow that call.
I do not trust the government to spread the gospel. I wish they would because the gospel would be spread. But I believe Scripture indicates otherwise.
Would you trust the government to teach your children or grandchildren faith?
Is Satan being in the world the cause of your above statement?
From above: I do believe secular politics is concerned about affairs of the World, but that is natural because secular politics is a worldly power.
Was this not literally the world Adam, sitting under the tree, found himself in?
Relative to Daniel 2, isn't the condition the earth was going to be in until the stone is cut out, without hands, to break all the worldly kingdoms in pieces. Dan 2:44,45 Rev 11:15-19 Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. ---Is that the stone in heaven to receive a kingdom and return to established it, on the earth?
Was Adam created for the purpose of the Word made flesh?
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
To destroy Satan and his works.
Which came first? The chicken of the egg? Satan or Adam?
Is everything taking place as God wills and our job is the following and to preach the gospel, as hope?
Lord teach us to pray. Methinks, we and myself especially, should do a lot more praying as Jesus taught them.
Que sera, sera
Not really. The reason for my statement is more along Scripture's warnings against the powers of this world. No political party has given God the glory for its accomplishments as they seek their own glory for political purposes. Trump declared that he gave us vaccines, he gave us a good economy, he provided security. Biden declared that he gave us the means to distribute vacvines, he brought back diplomacy....and AL Gore invented the internet.
I suppose it could be argued that this is the sin of Adam. Both political parties have proven themselves absent any shred of integrity.
Ultimately political parties seek after their own end.
@Iconoclast mentioned the need for Christians to have a voice in politics. From my understanding he was speaking of Christians standing for Christ, for God's glory, and not for their party's own power. Currently there is mo Christian party.
Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
I do not trust Caesar!
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Have ye not known that your body is a sanctuary of the Holy Spirit in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own, for ye were bought with a price; glorify, then, God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
I do not trust Caesar!
RighteousnessTemperance&
Well-Known Member
Yes, part does sound a bit contradictory. A personal conviction is one thing, and applies to self, which I would not dissuade. A conviction one thinks others should also hold is another thing entirely.
But so be it. We may disagree less than we do, but could agree more than we don't.
Regarding the world, it isn't just government that is secular, but the whole world, even to the point that "we know... that the whole world is under the control of the evil one, (1 John 5:19b).
There’s hardly anywhere that one doesn’t have to contend with that reality (see 1 Corinthians 5:9-10). Businesses are secular as well. The world’s system is secular all over.
I believe that Christians should be salt and light and that that includes actively promoting righteous policy within government, and it sounds like you don't really disagree with that.
Those who are in authority who are also Christians are doubly God’s servants (as in Romans 13:4), but also bear a greater responsibility.
I don’t trust the government to teach per se, especially not at a federal level. There are totalitarian countries that assume the indoctrination of children. We’re already seeing our own try to force CRT on kids, and trying to intimidate parents who object. Again, this is coming from the Dem Progressive Left.
If our government were to assume responsibility for spreading the Gospel, one can be sure it wouldn’t be the Gospel for long. I hope to never see it try, but instead to maintain law and order such that Christians may freely carry out that responsibility.
[QUOTE = "percho, post: 2758292, member: 9897"] Rev. 18:23 and Light lύchnou I will not fάnῃ in thee ETI and voice nymfίou nύmfis and I will not yet akousthῇ in thee; that thy emporoί were the magnates of the earth that, in tῇ farmakeίᾳ your eplanήthisan pάnta nations
Pro-Vaxers = Pro Pharma[/QUOTE]
I recall Jesus being accused of casting out demons by the power of Satan. For me, I am thankful that God provided vaccines that have saved lives. God is a God of means.
Pro-Vaxers = Pro Pharma[/QUOTE]
I recall Jesus being accused of casting out demons by the power of Satan. For me, I am thankful that God provided vaccines that have saved lives. God is a God of means.
3 factors have made me pro-vax:
(1) Last April 13 I got the 2nd Pfizer jab. The next day I felt led to walk into a middle-aged Baptist friend's office and urge him to get vaccinated too. But like most evangelicals I know, he had drunk the internet kool-aid about dangerous vaccine side-effects; so I quickly dropped the subject and left. A couple of months later he and his wife got Covid and his wife died from it!
A few months later, I felt compelled to do something I never do--leave me residence in the evening and go for a walk around 2 specific blocks. As soon as I arrived at a corner, I ran into a new Christian I intended to mentor. He was in shock because he had just found his son on his kitchen floor, dead of a drug overdose! Someone cruelly told him his son got what was coming to him! So he needed a sympathetic ear to vent and pour out his heart in grief. I mention this because it confirmed my sense that God had prompted me to urge my Baptist friend to get vaxxed.
(2) A couple of months later, I quit an interdenominational prayer group I had started because they continually bashed the idea of vaccine mandates, even in their prayers. The day I quit the group, they had announced that the presiding pastor, who refused to get vaccinated, had tested negative for the virus. But God revealed to me that this was a false negative and my discernment proved true. The pastor and his wife both got Covid and the pastor's case was particularly severe. He survived, but resigned shortly thereafter.
(3) My brother, a doctor, told me that if my friends refused to get vaccinated, they would likely eventually get Covid. I initially scoffed at this idea, but months later it seems to be coming true! My brother says only 3 of his patients refused to get vaccinated and 2 of the 3 got Covid. Of the 100+ rest, only 3 of the fully vaccinated got Covid.
My brother surprised me this Christmas by expressing the wish that everyone would get Omicron because it is comparatively mild and would create herd immunity to the more serious Covid strains.
He also shared an interesting fact about recent medical research on Covid. Variants like D and Omicron are created in South Africa because of the high rate of lingering AIDs infection. Indeed, a small amount of Omicron's DNA has an AIDs strain, though this does not make it more severe.
(1) Last April 13 I got the 2nd Pfizer jab. The next day I felt led to walk into a middle-aged Baptist friend's office and urge him to get vaccinated too. But like most evangelicals I know, he had drunk the internet kool-aid about dangerous vaccine side-effects; so I quickly dropped the subject and left. A couple of months later he and his wife got Covid and his wife died from it!
A few months later, I felt compelled to do something I never do--leave me residence in the evening and go for a walk around 2 specific blocks. As soon as I arrived at a corner, I ran into a new Christian I intended to mentor. He was in shock because he had just found his son on his kitchen floor, dead of a drug overdose! Someone cruelly told him his son got what was coming to him! So he needed a sympathetic ear to vent and pour out his heart in grief. I mention this because it confirmed my sense that God had prompted me to urge my Baptist friend to get vaxxed.
(2) A couple of months later, I quit an interdenominational prayer group I had started because they continually bashed the idea of vaccine mandates, even in their prayers. The day I quit the group, they had announced that the presiding pastor, who refused to get vaccinated, had tested negative for the virus. But God revealed to me that this was a false negative and my discernment proved true. The pastor and his wife both got Covid and the pastor's case was particularly severe. He survived, but resigned shortly thereafter.
(3) My brother, a doctor, told me that if my friends refused to get vaccinated, they would likely eventually get Covid. I initially scoffed at this idea, but months later it seems to be coming true! My brother says only 3 of his patients refused to get vaccinated and 2 of the 3 got Covid. Of the 100+ rest, only 3 of the fully vaccinated got Covid.
My brother surprised me this Christmas by expressing the wish that everyone would get Omicron because it is comparatively mild and would create herd immunity to the more serious Covid strains.
He also shared an interesting fact about recent medical research on Covid. Variants like D and Omicron are created in South Africa because of the high rate of lingering AIDs infection. Indeed, a small amount of Omicron's DNA has an AIDs strain, though this does not make it more severe.