How Free Will Turns the Gospel into Law and Grace into Works.

[Dave G]

Satan wins Job's Challenge.

God won "Job's challenge", because He created a man that was loyal to Him as demonstrated by Job's faith.

The only reason Job is loyal to God is because God forced him to be.

The only reason Job was loyal to the death, was because Job was born again, and his will mercifully changed when God changed His heart.

Like David, he became a man after God's own heart.

 

[Calminian]

It's more about law keeping. Law needs free will, the gospel does not unless you present it as law. If you do, you corrupt it.

Right but the issue for us is faith. We cannot choose to keep the law nor can we reckon our own faith as righteous. Only God that do that.

Try to focus on the word "reckon" in regard to faith. Notice how it's often mentioned with faith. We believe, but God reckons our belief. And he does so under no obligation. God could condemn believers along with non-believers and still be just. That is the reason why salvation is 100% of God. Faith does not earn God's reckoning. God chooses of his own free will to reckon.

I think this solves the problem many determinists are concerned about. When you understand the concept of reckoning, you no longer have to worry about man taking part in faith. The faith itself does not earn him anything.

 

[Calminian]

Satan sinned in Heaven and was expelled long before the Garden

Not according to Ezekiel 28 and Gen. 3. Both say Satan walked in Eden, the Garden of God prior to his fall.

 

[1689Dave]

Right but the issue for us is faith. We cannot choose to keep the law nor can we reckon our own faith as righteous. Only God that do that.

Try to focus on the word "reckon" in regard to faith. Notice how it's often mentioned with faith. We believe, but God reckons our belief. And he does so under no obligation. God could condemn believers along with non-believers and still be just. That is the reason why salvation is 100% of God. Faith does not earn God's reckoning. God chooses of his own free will to reckon.

This think this solves the problem many determinists are concerned about.

After the new birth the will is enslaved to Christ instead of Satan, as before. But there is a slight freedom to sin occasionally after the new birth, but not habitually.

 

[Calminian]

After the new birth the will is enslaved to Christ instead of Satan, as before. But there is a slight freedom to sin occasionally after the new birth, but not habitually.

You're veering off the point I made, though. Try to focus on what I said. I think it's germane to the concerns you have.

 

[1689Dave]

You're veering off the point I made, though. Try to focus on what I said. I think it's germane to the concerns you have.

I think if you have true faith, you will reckon yourself a pathetic wretch as Paul did with himself. How God sees your faith is the least of your concern.

 

[Calminian]

I think if you have true faith, you will reckon yourself a pathetic wretch as Paul did with himself.

Agreed. So then, there's really no issue of taking any credit for salvation. There is no reason to boast about faith. It earns nothing.

How God sees your faith is the least of your concern.

How God reckons our faith is everything. Apart from God's reckoning of our faith, there is no hope for us. Thus it matters not if faith is of freewill or not. Whether it's free or not, it forces no obligation on God. God reckons our faith of his own free will.

 

[1689Dave]

Agreed. So then, there's really no issue of taking any credit for salvation. There is no reason to boast about faith. It earns nothing.



How God reckons our faith is everything. Apart from God's reckoning of our faith, there is no hope for us. Thus it matters not if faith is of freewill or not. Whether it's free or not, it forces no obligation on God. God reckons our faith of his own free will.

If it is God who reckons it, why assume we reckon it?

 

[Calminian]

If it is God who reckons it, why assume we reckon it?

Dave, follow the conversation. I just wrote 3 posts explaining to you that we do not reckon our own faith. God alone does it.

Perhaps what you're doing is conflating man's faith with God's reckoning. That's why you believe freewill is a problem in regard to faith, you can't separate the two.

 

[loDebar]

Every instance of a person being saved at a particular moment is false, having been never in danger from the foundation. Also they are not born-again, they are just perfectly born once. You can't be saved unless there was a real danger.

This also render unconditional election false. Its fully conditional on being created for damnation or not.

Satan wins Job's Challenge. The only reason Job is loyal to God is because God forced him to be.

no, He lost everything and was still loyal even though his wife wasn't

 

[1689Dave]

Dave, follow the conversation. I just wrote 3 posts explaining to you that we do not reckon our own faith. God alone does it.

Perhaps what you're doing is conflating man's faith with God's reckoning. That's why you believe freewill is a problem in regard to faith, you can't separate the two.

I don't reckon my faith. So what's the point?

 

[Calminian]

I don't reckon my faith. So what's the point?

The point is, if you don't reckon your own faith, you don't have to worry about whether or not faith is of your own freewill. If only God reckons, it doesn't matter.

 

[1689Dave]

The point is, if you don't reckon your own faith, you don't have to worry about whether or not faith is of your own freewill. If only God reckons, it doesn't matter.

If it is a condition met in the flesh for salvation, it's a false gospel and possibly worse. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Calminian]

If it is a condition met in the flesh for salvation, it's a false gospel and possibly worse. True faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit.

Exactly! And we know from Scripture that faith cannot earn salvation. It is not a work. It has no meritorious value. It has to be reckoned, and reckoning is 100% of God. Thus man, simply by believing, is not contributing to his salvation. God would be just if he still condemned believers.

Paul actually calls believers "the ungodly."

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.​

 

[1689Dave]

Exactly! And we know from Scripture that faith cannot earn salvation. It is not a work. It has no meritorious value. It has to be reckoned, and reckoning is 100% of God. Thus man, simply by believing, is not contributing to his salvation. God would be just if he still condemned believers.

Paul actually calls believers "the ungodly."

Romans 4:5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.​

Man is the savior if faith originates with man.

 

[Calminian]

Man is the savior if faith originates with man.

Only if you believe faith is a work and deny the doctrine of reckoning, which you clearly do.

 

[loDebar]

it is not just the presence of faith , but what is your faith in. Faith does not save. Faith in the finished work of Christ offers salvation. One can believe in Christ as Savior and still not repent and bide lost

 

[loDebar]

We do not believe with our minds, which would be work, but we believe with our hearts it is faith

 

[1689Dave]

Only if you believe faith is a work and deny the doctrine of reckoning, which you clearly do.

If faith comes from the flesh it is reckoned as filthy rags.

 

[Calminian]

If faith comes from the flesh it is reckoned as filthy rags.

Faith, apart from God's reckoning, could be described this way. It earns nothing. Why else would Paul call believers, "ungodly."

Seems to me you've elevated faith to a meritorious work status. Curious how you got that conclusion, considering all the passages is scripture denying it.

So, do you deny the doctrine of reckoning? Or do you even know what it is? Have you researched it?