How "good" is "good enough"?

[mets65]

They are still children of God.

Here' a news flash...

NONE of us have lived up to Gods standards perfectly

Boy that made me take a step back. But you're so right and its such an obvious answer.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The Apostle Paul would disagree...

"5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who 'will render to each one according to his deeds': 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek."
(Romans 2:5-10)

Your are abusing verse 5. The person described in verse 5 is the same person described in verses 1-4 which is a NON-BELIEVER who thinks they will escape judgement (v. 3) because they believe their works will vindicate them above others. The pronoun "thee" in verse 4 grammatically refers to the same person in verses 1-3. You simply are abusing verses 1-5.

Verse 6 defines the basis upon which the person in verses 1-5 believes they will escape the judgment of God - THEIR OWN WORKS - not the imputed rightousness of Jesus Christ, not justification by faith, but JUSTIFICATION BY WORKS UNDER THE LAW (vv. 11-15). Verses 6-10 simply provides the JUST basis and JUST consequences that WORKS will receive UNDER LAW!

You don't recognize this not because the developmental context does not clearly demand it but because it conflicts with your predisposed eisgetical based soteriology.

Notice Paul states that God will render eternal life to those who do good.

ABsolutely! He is talking about self-righteous lost men who wish to obtain eternal life by DOING GOOD WORKS (v. 6) and simply sets forth the criteria for what teh Law requires TO DO GOOD ENOUGH to obatin that goal - "PERSERVING CONTINUALLY IN DOING WELL" just as Paul treats it negatively in Galatians 3:10 in these words:

"Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them."

Notice too that this will be done in the day of judgment. Notice Paul does NOT say that God will simply render rewards or a higher heavenly position or present day peace, joy, or assurance to those who do good, while the self-seeking and disobedient, while still being rendered eternal life, don't get those extra things.

What you should be saying is that this is a context of justification by"WORKS" (v. 6) only UNDER LAW (vv. 12-13) and not justification by faith in Christ and therefore has absolutely no application to those justified by faith in Christ. However, you are simply PERVERTING this text to suit your own ill concieved false doctrine.

And so would the Apostle Peter...

" 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." (2 Peter 1:5-11)

The issue is assurance and "ABUNDANT" entrance not in order to enter! Notice how you conveniently omit the word "abundant" in order to sustain your false interpetation of this text.

And so would Bishop James, our Lord's Brother...

"14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith SAVE him?
"17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
"20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
"26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:14,17,20-24,26)

Notice James doesn't teach that faith minus works is dead and profitless for the purpose of gaining rewards in heaven or for having peace, joy, and assurance here on earth, but rather faith without works cannot SAVE a person. Such 'faith' would be a simple 'bare intellectual assent' to the truth of the Gospel, rather than the "faith which works through love" which actually "avails anything" "in Christ Jesus" (Gal 5:6).

Notice how you pick and choose what you want James to say! James introduces this in the context of the Human Court of Observation and thus justification before men not justification before God - Note his words "shew ME.....shew YOU." Each example was BEFORE MEN (Abraham before Isaac and servant; Rahab before spies and all Israel).

And so would our Lord Jesus Christ...

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation." (John 5:28-29)

Notice Christ doesn't say that those who have done good will simply get heavenly rewards and present day peace/joy/assurance, and that converserly those who don't do good will just not get these extra nice things, but will get to enter heaven anyway. Rather, Christ states those who have DONE GOOD will partake in the resurrection of LIFE and those who have DONE EVIL to CONDEMNATION.

Another example of JERKING a text out of context! Why not start with verse 24 my friend??????? Why not start with the words "SHALL NOT COME into condemnation" due to IMPUTED RIGHEOUSNESS and thus GOOD by definition of God's Law due to IMPUTED RIGHTEUSNESS. Why not note the REGENERATIVE RIGHTEOUSNESS of those raised from the Spiritual dead. In contrast the lost man has NO RIGHTEOUSNESS - not imputed, not regenerative, nothing good in God's sight!!!!!!


You are simply gifted in PERVERTING the scriptuers and JERKING texts out of context to suit your own desires.

 

[BobRyan]

That is my point in using them and asking these questions because there are many on this forum that think they can be justified by their works with a little help from God.

When we "circle back" to the case of the lost - looking for how the lost are to be justified - we see that in Romans 3 and Gal 3 - the only solution is Justification by grace through faith (Eph 2:8).

But when we get to the Perseverance of the saints (Rev 14:12, Rom 2:7) and the "Fruit of the good tree" (Matt 7) and yet balk wanting to circle back again to the view of the lost -- Paul tells us in Heb 6:1 that we are NOT to continually go back to "A" in the ABCs "laying again the foundation of repentance".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Thus when speaking of the saints "IF you Love Me" (if you are a saint) "KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 -- only THEN do we have the issue of "persevering in doing good" (Rom 2:7) because only then is the good tree bearing good fruit. (Matt 7)

So in that context we have --

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not moved away
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.



Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."
Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

 

[Dr. Walter]

When we "circle back" to the case of the lost - looking for how the lost are to be justified - we see that in Romans 3 and Gal 3 - the only solution is Justification by grace through faith (Eph 2:8).

But when we get to the Perseverance of the saints (Rev 14:12, Rom 2:7) and the "Fruit of the good tree" (Matt 7) and yet balk wanting to circle back again to the view of the lost -- Paul tells us in Heb 6:1 that we are NOT to continually go back to "A" in the ABCs "laying again the foundation of repentance".

in Christ,

Bob

There is no circling back because there is no such doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" ACCORDING TO HOW YOU DEFINE IT! The elect cannot be justified or sanctified by the works of the law. Paul tells the Colossians to "walk even as you received" and that was by faith. Romans 7:14-25 is the experience of the saved who attempt to be sanctified by the works of the law whereas Romans 7:6-13 is the attempt of the lost to be justified by the works of the law.

There are not TWO standards of righteousness. One standard whereby lost are justified by faith without works (Rom. 3:5-6) and another standard whereby saved are justified with works. NO FLESH is justified by the works of the law whether lost or saved, Jew or Gentile.

 

[Dr. Walter]

"IF you Love Me" (if you are a saint) "KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15 -- only THEN do we have the issue of "persevering in doing good" (Rom 2:7) because only then is the good tree bearing good fruit. (Matt 7)

John 14:15 is directed toward those Jesus already promised would be taken to heaven (Jn. 14:1-5) already in a saved condition. "IF you love me" defines the proper motivation for SAVED people to serve God because they have been saved not in order to become saved. Romans 2:7 has nothing to do with saved people but with lost people who come before God to be justified under law by their works.

So in that context we have --

Matt 10:22 endured until the end[/B] that will be saved.

Jerked out of context. The previous verse (v. 21) introduces PHYSICAL DEATH. The followiing verse (23) gives direction to avoid PHYSICAL DEATH. This is the context of PHYSICAL PERSECUTION and how to avoid PHYSICAL DEATH during the latter days. If one follows his directions he will PHYSICALLY persevere until the end.

1Tim 4]as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Here is the aspect of salvation that you simply are completely ignorant about. This is the present tense aspect of salvation that has to do with "REDEEMING THE TIME" (Eph. 5:16). How to save your "life." The Christian can "put off the old man" and can "put on" the new man. Whatever "time" is dominated by one or the other is either redeemed/saved or lost. As a child of God walks "after" the Spirit (Eph. 5:17-18) he redeems his time, his daily life but whatever time he walks "after" the flesh he loses his time and wastes his life and loses eternal dividends. This has nothing to do with entrance into heaven but with the salvation of his life here and now and the consquences of sowing after the flesh or Spirit here and now with eternal consequences in regard to rewards in heaven (1 Cor. 3:11-15). It has to do with the building your house (life) not the foundation upon which the house is being built. However, the person who believes in justification by works is building his house upon the foundation of "sand" no matter how beautiful his house may be it will collapse in the day of judgement.

Heb 2:1-3; Heb 3:12-14; Heb 10:35-39
39 But we are not of those who

shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

All the above texts have to do with profession versus possession and Hebrews 4:2 is the text given to explain this. Paul is merely warning those professors that not all who profess are saved as those who fell in the wilderness (Heb. 3) did so because the gospel was not "MIXED IN THEM WITH FAITH" (Heb. 4:2) and therefore they had an "EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF" (Heb. 3:12). True Christians are not among those who "draw back to perdition" but who continue in their profession of faith and it is manifest by their works.

1Cor 15:1-2

the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Two gospels were preached among the Corinthians. One was the gospel of Paul which saves and the other was a "vain" gospel that provided no salvation (vv. 10-19). Some of his readers had embraced the vain gospel and some were contending for the gospel of Paul. This is why Paul is responding here. Paul is challenging the genuiness of their original profession of faith as he uses the Aorist tense "believed." False professors will hear and follow another shepherd but true believers do not (Jn. 10:26-28).

Rom 11:22

if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Who were "cut off"? Individual saved Jews or the unbelieving nation of Israel? The unbelieving nation of Israel was cut off! Hence, being cut off has nothing to do with the saved "remnant" but with unbelieving nations. Previously God had PRIMARILY called out his people from among Israel as a nation. Now they were "cut off" as a nation for rejecting their messiah. He turns now to the Gentile nations to all out a people ("remnant") among them and if they also as a PEOPLE reject the gospel he will turn back to the nation of Israel as a PEOPLE and call out from among them a people for his name. Hence, cutting off or grafting in has nothing to do with individual salvaiton or loss of individual salvaiton but rather the privilege of God's PRIMARY work of redemption to call out a people from AMONG THEM. When the Gentiles as a WHOLE or a PEOPLE reject the gospel, God will "graft in" AGAIN the Nation of Israel as a People.

Col 1:21-23

It is again a question of GENIUNE salvation evidence by continuance in the faith manifested by works rather than apostasy from the faith which manifests false profession (1 Jn. 2:19).

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Paul has moved on beyond the discussion of justification by works or by faith and beginning with Galatians 5:16 to the end of the book is dealing with the Christian life. There is a present tense sowing and reaping NOW whereby a christian is PRESENTLY either experiencing LIFE or DEATH according to what he is sowing. This is not about entrance into heaven in the future but about ETERNAL LIFE right now
being part of the Christian EXPERIENCE or DEATH right now being part of the Christian experience. As the Christian PUTS ON the new man his PRESENT EXPERIENCE is eternal life (fruit of the the Spirit, blessings, usefulness, etc.) but whenever he is walking "after" the flesh his PRESENT EXPERIENCE reaps death manifest in his PRESENT LIFE (the fruits of the flesh). His PRESENT EXPERIENCE is being saved or lost, his PRESENT TIME is being redeemed or lost.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED

Eschatalogical context - Enduring through PHYSICAL challenges so that one perseveres PHYSICALLY until Christ returns.

Matthew 24:13 QUOTE]

Eschatalogical context - Enduring through PHYSICAL challenges so that one perseveres PHYSICALLY until Christ returns.

Bob, you charge me with circling back to justification by faith. However, you ignore the clear and explicit teaching of the Scriptuers about FALSE PROFESSIONS (Heb. 4:2) where the hearer of the gospel makes a profession but that profession is not MIXED IN THEIR HEART WITH FAITH and therefore they continue in a EVIL HEART OF UNBELIEF. These are the ones who depart from the faith (1 Jn. 2:19) who were never part of believers in regard to genuine faith. Because you refuse to acknowlege the clear Biblical teaching of such a people you pervert the texts that deal with such a people or texts that are meant to identify such a people into imaginary texts of saved people becoming lost.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no circling back because there is no such doctrine of "perseverance of the saints" .

hint: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1634730&postcount=24

Reread those Bible texts "slowllly".

Don't "just say nay" when you see Bible texts that do not fit man-made traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Here is the aspect of salvation that you simply are completely ignorant about. This is the present tense aspect of salvation that has to do with "REDEEMING THE TIME" (Eph. 5:16).

How to save your "life." The Christian can "put off the old man" and can "put on" the new man. Whatever "time" is dominated by one or the other is either redeemed/saved or lost.

...This has nothing to do with entrance into heaven .

I realize that your answer above is probably the best dismissal of the texts above that can be had at the moment.

But I prefer the texts as they read.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

When we "circle back" to the case of the lost - looking for how the lost are to be justified - we see that in Romans 3 and Gal 3 - the only solution is Justification by grace through faith (Eph 2:8).

But when we get to the Perseverance of the saints (Rev 14:12, Rom 2:7) and the "Fruit of the good tree" (Matt 7) and yet balk wanting to circle back again to the view of the lost -- Paul tells us in Heb 6:1 that we are NOT to continually go back to "A" in the ABCs "laying again the foundation of repentance".

in Christ,

Bob

Paul says "AS you received the Lord Jesus Christ" (and you agree that is justification by grace through faith) "SO walk ye in him" (Hence, there is no circling back but you walk as you received (Col. 2:6).

 

[Dr. Walter]

hint: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1634730&postcount=24

Reread those Bible texts "slowllly".

Don't "just say nay" when you see Bible texts that do not fit man-made traditions.

in Christ,

Bob

Already answered each one:

http://www.baptistboard.com/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1634915

 

[Dr. Walter]

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it
Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,





I realize that your answer above is probably the best dismissal of the texts above that can be had at the moment.

But I prefer the texts as they read.

in Christ,

Bob

No you don't! You prefer your interpretation of them which superficial only as they are jerked out of context.

 

[BobRyan]

No you don't! You prefer your interpretation of them which superficial only as they are jerked out of context.

So then ... you ARE happy to accept these texts AS they read or you still object to them??

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

So then ... you ARE happy to accept these texts AS they read or you still object to them??

Yes, I still accept these texts as they read in context and still reject your eisgetical jerked out of context misinterpretation of these texts.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Gal. 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Paul defines the SDA soteriology in this passage. SDA teaches that one begins the Christian life by "the hearing of faith" or justification faith but continues the Christian life "by the works of the law" or "made perfect by the flesh."

According to SDA soteriology a person enters into salvation one way but continues in salvataion another way.

However, Paul's position was "AS ye have received Jesus Christ SO WALK ye in him" - Col. 2:6.

When we point out this error in SDA soteriology Bob accuses us of circling back, thus an open admission that he believes one enters the Chrstian life through justification by faith but continues through justification by works. He defines the continuance aspect of justification by works as "perserverance of the saints." Galatians is written to condemn this very error of initial justification by faith but continuance by justificaiton through works.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Let us place this text back into its context like thus:

21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Your point for quoting this text is to support the idea that perseverance in good works is what saves a professed believer in the end.

However, the verses both before and after place this in the framework of the end time when the consquences of identifying with Christ may invoke persecution unto physical death.

Note the verse that follows your chosen text! He instructs them to "FLEE" when persecution begins in a city? The instruction to "FLEE" only preserves PHYSICAL life as no such instruction is necessary to preserve SPIRITUAL life. Hence, what is in view here is how to preserve their PHYSICAL lives in such circumstances. If you follow his instructions you PRESERVE YOUR OWN PHYSICAL LIFE until the end but if you do not follow these instructions it is PHYSICAL DEATH that both precedes (v. 21) and follows (v. 23) this text. Hence, to read into verse 22 conditions to preserve SPIRITUAL life is reading into this text what the context both before and after does not suggest or imply.

 

[Dr. Walter]

[/FONT][/COLOR]
1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,



in Christ,

Bob

Again, you have taken a select portions of Scripture found in Hebrews 2-3 and drawn the conclusion that these texts demand perseverance in good works in order to be finally justified for eternal life.

However, the writer of Hebrews draws a different conclusion to those He has been talking about in such a way in Hebrews 2-3. When he comes to application in Hebrews 4:1-2 he plainly states that those who apostatized in Heberws 3 were not really saved to begin with because their initial profession was not "mixed with faith IN THEM"

Heb. 4:1 ¶ Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

However, your whole argument not only infers but demands that those Paul were describing were true beleivers and did initially make a true confession of faith.

However, even previous to this conclusive "therefore" in Hebrew 4:1 he has clearly stated they were really false professors who really never believed:


Heb. 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

Heb. 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

Their departure from the living God was in profession only as they never had faith mixed with the gospel IN THEM!

Heb. 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

Paul is not talking about true believers in heart but about PROFESSED BELIEVERS in mouth who NEVER known his ways, ALWAYS err in their heart because the word was NEVER mixed with faith in their heart. You present them has having know the ways of God but Paul says they "have not known my ways." You present them as true believers that apostatized but Paul says they ALWAY err in heart and NEVER had faith mixed with the gospel word in their heart (Heb. 4:2). Therefore, this writer is exposing FALSE PROFESSION rather than warning about true believers going into apostasy (1 Jn. 2:19).

Just as you jerked Matthew 10:22 out of its context and perverted it, you have jerked these texts out of the overall context and the specific and explicit drawn conclusions repeatedly stated.

 

[BobRyan]

So then ... you ARE happy to accept these texts AS they read or you still object to them??

Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.


1Tim 4
15Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,

Yes, I still accept these texts as they read in context and still reject your eisgetical jerked out of context misinterpretation of these texts.

I merely "quoted the text".

It is instructive to the unbiased objective reader that you "need such a spin" on the texts themselves that merely "quoting them" without your spin added to the text - is offensive to you.

Your position is more transparent than you suppose.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

I merely "quoted the text".

It is instructive to the unbiased objective reader that you "need such a spin" on the texts themselves that merely "quoting them" without your spin added to the text - is offensive to you.

Your position is more transparent than you suppose.

Time to be honest Bob! You have not only been quoting these texts you have previously given your take on them as well!

Any heretic can jerk a text out of context and use it for a pretext to teach anything they like. What you call my "spin" is simply placing the text back into its context and allowing the context to define it.

I noticed you could not respond to the contextual definitions but simply chose to isolate the text once again from its context. Everybody has got your number Bob, you don't care what the Bible actually teaches in context but you a proof texter who simply uses the Bible for you own agenda.

 

[BobRyan]

The texts speak for themselves. your opposition to them is more transparent to the reader than you have imagined - Ranting as you do whenever these texts are quoted is not the compelling way to show that you are embracing scripture.

Though innexplicably you seem to imagine otherwise -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

The texts speak for themselves. your opposition to them is more transparent to the reader than you have imagined - Ranting as you do whenever these texts are quoted is not the compelling way to show that you are embracing scripture.

Though innexplicably you seem to imagine otherwise -

in Christ,

Bob

The evidence speaks for itself and I have placed it in your face over and over again.

1. You cannot find any Christian in verses 1-5 and the pronouns prove it.
2. You cannot deny that Romans 2:6 is strictly a "according to works" assessment UNDER LAW as Romans 2:11-14 make that clear.
3. You cannot find any common designators used elsewhere by Paul for saints, saved, justified by faith, justified by grace, elect, etc. in Romans 2:1-29.
4. If you apply Romans 2:14-15 to regenerate gentiles you completely destroy any contextual identifiable standard for God to judge gentiles "according to his works"
5. If you apply the term "gospel" in verse16 as evidence of saved persons present you are ignoring that Paul has mentioned it not for salvation but for a standard of JUDGEMENT.
6. The pronouns in Romans 2:17-24 deny any possible application to saved persons
7. The argument in Romans 2:25-29 is based squarely on the Biblical definition of what the Law requires to "fulfill" it "according to his works" and in particular to the work of circumcision, which no Jew or Gentile is capable of doing.
8. You ignore that Romans 3:1 presumes that a PAST argument has been made that circumcision is of no avail in addition to FUTURE arguments that restrict the benefit of being a Jew and circumcision to something other than salvation.