How has your understanding of the bible made you more holy

Unless I am not able to accurately count to two, there are here two questions, not one.

My name is not Paul; I was not writing about myself.

The correct interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 is not dependent upon the experience of any one individual living today. The question is, “What is Paul teaching in Roman 7:14-25?”

 

Paul does NOT tell the believers that they were dead to sin! Paul is, in chapter six of the epistle at hand, admonishing Christians who had heard and received a portion of the gospel, but who were still having serious problems with personal sin. And he admonishes these Christians to “consider [themselves] to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” But Paul does not simply admonish them to do this, he brings to their attention both the meaning and the efficacy of their water baptism and shows them plainly that through faith in the death and resurrection of Christ they can be “freed from sin and enslaved to God,” the result of which is sanctification and eternal life (v. 22).

22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Of course there is no contradiction here. Paul is saying in a nutshell, “Hey guys! What do you think you are doing! Why are you living in sin? Don’t you know that “all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death” and that dead men don’t sin? “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.”

Jesus taught the same thing,

John 8:31. So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, {then} you are truly disciples of Mine;
32. and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
33. They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
34. Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
35. "The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
36. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

The redemption of Christ is redemption from sin. Satan, however, is still alive. Some Christians choose to say no to him; other Christians choose to play games with him, not really believing that the wages of sin is death.

Paul is not going back and forth between positional sanctification and practical sanctification. Paul is helping the Christians in Rome to understand what Christ did for them through His death and His resurrection, and admonishing them to take advantage of it. There is no such thing as “positional sanctification.”

1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

A man is either sanctified—or he is not!

 

Yer right Craig. That is exactly what my Nazarene Grandfather preached for over 56 years!

In HIS service;
Jim

 

Unless I am not able to accurately count to two, there are here two questions, not one.

My name is not Paul; I was not writing about myself.

The correct interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 is not dependent upon the experience of any one individual living today. The question is, “What is Paul teaching in Roman 7:14-25?”

</font>[/QUOTE]I totally agree with you that our experiances do not interpret scripture, but I am asking you these direct questions.

1.Do you still struggle with sin?

2.Are you sinless?

Yes or No answers please, you can elaborate on your answer, but it must be yes or no.

I have a feeling you will not be able to directly answer these questions, but just wanted to put them out there for our listening audience.

IFBReformer

 

Even from your own quote of Romans 6:22, It shows past tense that they(the believers he is writing to) are freed from sin and enslaved to God. "having been freed from sin" is not what you try and insert, "that they can" be freed from sin.

Consider this quote:

"17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness."
Romans 6:17-18


The same believers who Paul admonished in verses 12 & 13 of Romans chapter 6 -

Are the same believers he says are freed from sin(past tense) in verses 16 & 17

The only Biblical way to understand this is to understand the distinction between Practical and Postitional sanctifaction - a doctrine of scripture you reject.

Otherwise you have to massacure the tense of this passage of scripture. You have to magically claim he is shifting and talking to two different groups of believers.

I want to make sure I am understanding what you are claiming the scriptures here teach -

Question 1
Are you saying if we are truly trusting in Christ he will free us our from sin in the sense that we will become sinless in our unglorified mortal bodies?

Question 2
Does this passage in your view teach we gain eternal life by becoming sinless in this mortal unglorified body?

Question 3
Since you reject the doctrine of Positional Sanctification, how do you handle the inputed righteousness of God given to Abraham simply based on his believing God?

Question 4.
Why would Abraham's sin never be counted against him?

Question 5.
What does it mean to have righteousness credited for faith?

I really would like yes or no answers for questions 1 and 2, and then you can elaborate on those questions as well as these other questions.

IFBReformer

 

You yourself admit that my experience is irrelevant to the exegesis of Scripture, and I do not have time for irrelevant nonsense.

 

Try reading your Bible.

 

I have no idea from whence you have arrived at the junk doctrine of positional sanctification, but I have posted a Scripture from the Bible that absolutely contradicts that junk doctrine,

1 John 3:7. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

The ONLY sanctification is practical sanctification; the ONLY righteousness is practical righteousness. The Christians in Rome were Christians. They had been baptized, they were on the right road, but they had not yet come to a full understanding of what Christ had done for them. You are confusing Paul’s method of argument with a false doctrine that Paul never taught.

Rom. 6:17. But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

These guys had been unregenerate sinners, but they had since then become believers through the teaching of the gospel.

18. and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Having accepted Christ as their savior, they had been freed from sin and they had become slaves of righteousness, but only to a limited extent—there was still some sin in their lives. It should not have been there, but it was, and Paul is showing them that it should not be there and need not be there—and, indeed, MUST NOT be there!

19. I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

Being a Christian is BEING a Christian—it is not sitting on the sofa staring into space like a zombie.

20. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.

Before these guys were saved, they were slaves of sin, and righteousness had no reins over them.

21. Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.

Come on guys, get real! What good were you getting out of those sins that you have repented of? And what good are you getting out of those sins that you are still committing even though you are ashamed of them? The outcome of sin is death. “For the wages of sin is death.” "The person who sins will die.”

22. But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Paul concludes his argument here on a high and hopeful note

23. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Ezekiel 18:20. "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.
21. "But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
22. "All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live.
23. "Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?
24. "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.
25. "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Hear now, O house of Israel! Is My way not right? Is it not your ways that are not right?
26. "When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die.
27. "Again, when a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life.
28. "Because he considered and turned away from all his transgressions which he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
29. "But the house of Israel says, 'The way of the Lord is not right.' Are My ways not right, O house of Israel? Is it not your ways that are not right?
30. "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31. "Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?
32. "For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

(All Scriptures are from the NASB, 1995)

 

No.

No.

It appears to me that you are confusing a junk doctrine of positional sanctification with the Biblical doctrine of the imputation of righteousness.

Because Abraham had faith in God. But, of course, this is irrelevant to our discussion or Roman 6:1 – 7:25.

The imputation of righteousness as the consequence of faith in Christ is NOT the subject of this discussion.

So be it.

 

You yourself admit that my experience is irrelevant to the exegesis of Scripture, and I do not have time for irrelevant nonsense.

</font>[/QUOTE]As I said, I had a feeling you would not answer this question directly.

Here are some new questions for you that I am sure you probably won't answer because it is "irrelevant" to this discussion - when it really is relevant to any discussion in mine and many other Christians view -

Question 1.

Are you saved?

Question 2.

Why are you saved?


Note to moderator - I am not questioning his salvation in the least, I just want him to answer they simple questions for sake of discussion.

IFBReformer

 

Question 1.
So if we won't become sinless in these mortal unglorified bodies, on what basis will God grant us eternal life?

Question 2(a & b).
Do we need do be perfectly righteous to enter eternal life? or do we need to be almost perfect with only momments of failure here and there?

Question 3.
So could you distinguish for me and our listening audience the difference between what you call the "junk doctrine of positional sanctification" and "the Biblical doctrine of the imputation of righteousness"?

Actually this is very relevant to our discussion as scripture interprets scripture and we cannot interpret Romans 6 & 7 in a vaccum as I am sure you believe because you have quoted other passages to support your interpretation. But we can come back to this later, I just wanted to get your answer here.

Actually "The imputation of righteousness as the consequence of faith in Christ" goes to the very heart of our discussion. I look forward to your answer to my question in this regard.

IFBReformer

 

Craigbythesea,

Hopefully you will read this post before responding as I have reworded this question:

I realize the first part is repetitious to the question I asked you about sinlessness, what I meant to ask you was this:

Question 2(a & b)
Since you said we do not have to become sinless in these mortal unglorified bodies to gain eternal life, do we need to be almost sinless - making the pattern of our life one of righteousness with only momments here and there of failure to gain eternal life?

IFBReformer

 

I forgot there was one more quote of yours I had questions on:

Question 1.
If the only righteousness is practical righteousness then is imputed righteousness
which comes by faith the same as practical righteousness?


We would agree that Paul is encouraging them not to sin, and telling them that they no longer have to obey sin. You see I see in this chapter Paul reminding them of their freedom, they are no longer obligated to obey their old master, So don't obey him! Exercise your freedom from your old master of sin! Thats what Paul is saying.


So we agree that "there was still some sin in their lives" (although Paul never directly states this - a point I will address in a minute)but you also said and I would agree that "accepted Christ as their savior". Paul never here makes any notion of what you say that "they had become slaves of righteousness, but only to a limited extent"

His statement is one of finality, without exception or limit.

Paul says had "been freed from sin" and does not add the qualifier you do - "only to a limited extent" he says they "became slaves of righteousness" and again does not add your qualifier - "only to a limited extent".

In fact later words clearify this even more:

The same people who he exhorts not to offer themselves as slaves again to their previous master of sin, he tells them they now derive their benefit of God freeing them sin, which is sanctification resulting in eternal life.

In fact he never says anything in this (chapter 6)passage which would indicate they still had some sins left to deal with(as you argued), he just told them not to offer themselves up again as slaves to their old master of sin.

The sanctification here is one they already have, not one they must strive to attain as you are insinuating of Paul.

Question 1
If you say this is a sanctification they must strive to attain by getting rid of the rest of their sins in their lives - explain to me and our listening audience how we don't have to be sinless to get eternal life as you said no to, but yet we seem to have to have sanctification here for eternal life?


Question 2
I would like you to elaborate on what you think Paul is saying when you make this quote:

Question 2(a & b)
We would agree that God does not was to sin. But what do you mean by MUST NOT be there? If there is any sin they have not dealt with before they die they will forfeit eternal life?

IFBReformer