How important is free will to you?

The point is not that all men are saved - the point is that God (by DRAWING ALL MANKIND to himself) is giving ALL a choice.

God "stands at the door and knocks so that if ANY MAN HEARS his VOICE and OPENS the door He will COME IN".

He does not "stand at the door and kick it in".

He does not stand at the door and OPEN it for the helpless one within.

The illustrations Christ uses are strictly "Arminian" in form.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The illustration of Rev.3.20 is in the context of the church only, man has developed it into a fictious call relying on an imagined 'free-will' of man to 'receive' or 'accept.'

Bro. Dallas

 

Brother Dallas,

If you cannot see 'free will' in Revelation 3:20 you spiritual vision is nearing that of being blind. Forget the concept of Christ offering salvation to the lost.

You are right that Christ is inviting the saved church members to return to Him lest they apostatize from Him in a more serious manner. Notice He knocks at their hearts door; He does not knock down the door with words in His mouth like, 'You accepted Me before; I have a sovereign right to rule you because you were chosen by Me.' Of those individual Christians, if they did not open the door [free will] they continued in their apostasy. If they opened the door {free will} to their heart for Him, they renewed their fellowship with Lord Jesus and enjoyed the spiritual comfort of knowing they were eternally saved.

If you brethren cannot see the free agency of man in this verse, there is very little hope to convince you of the truth of His sovereign plan for saints and sinners.

 

Where do you see the 'hearts door'?

Here Christ is speaking to 'him' that is in the church; calling on him to guide and lead the church back into the doctrine from which it is straying; and here is found the promise that Christ will come in to this faithful steward and will sup with him and he with Jesus etc.

This is what I see. Here at least you are applying to Scripture a context that is not connected nor implied.

Bro. Dallas

 

This is not a call to some church member to restore the organized church.

Rev 3 makes it clear "YOU SAY" you are RICH and in need of nothing but YOU ARE poor. Then Christ gets down to the INDIVIDUAL level "I stand at the door and knock if any ONE hears my Voice and Opens the Door I WILL COME IN and dine WITH HIM" - it is explicitly an INDIVIDUAL transaction applicable to "ANY ONE".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

How do you make the jump from a Church, (Laodicea) to whom this was obviously written and unsaved lost individuals?

It is not an invitation to come to salvation but an invitation to renew the salvation they had already experienced as they came into the Laodicean Church and the greater kingdom.

 

You is the body of the church. Who??? says they are rich??? "Unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write;"

In scripture the 'angel' of the church can be said to be the ministor given charge of that church.

This chapter is certainly not speaking in reference to indivdual salvation; to say it does just perverts it so that it can fit into a 'pre-conceived' notion held among men, but foreign to the Word of God and from his Purposes.

God Bless.
Bro. dallas

 

If this isn't a pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.

 

Song of Solomon 1.5-8

Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

You stopped ... it is applicable to anyone who hears and opens. That is what you guys seem to forget so easily. Believing/hearing/opening are a part of it. Anyone who does not do this will not be saved; everyone who does will be.

The question that should be the focus, that you guys will never really focus on, is why do some open and some not?

 

What a meaningless question to ask. Are we instructed to worry about such things?

Really, is the division based on this concept worth it? I believe Satan is having a great time!!!

 

[/quote]How do you make the jump from a Church, (Laodicea) to whom this was obviously written and unsaved lost individuals?

It is not an invitation to come to salvation but an invitation to renew the salvation [/quote]

It is Christ that declares that the symbol represents the INDIVIDUALs of that age of Laodicea. It is Christ that drills down to the level of "ANY ONE PERSON".

Instead of saying "I stand at the door of your church and knock - if anyone will open the door on behalf of the entire Church I will come in and we will once again be the Body of Christ with Me at the Head" --

He says "IF ANY ONE HEARS My voice AND opens the I door - I will DINE WITH HIM and HE with Me" Very individualized by Christ's OWN explicit statement that drills down to the level of the INDIVIDUAL - explicitly.

If "Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking to COME IN" is the description of the "SAVED experience" it is not said to be so in ANY of scripture.

If one can have fellowship with Christ, or be seated with Christ (as Rev 3 states) WITHOUT following the course that Rev 3 outlines (FIRST OPENING the DOOR) - it is not said to be so in all of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wrong.

The text does NOT say "I stand at the door of those who hear".

The text says "I stand at the DOOR and KNOCK. IF ANY MAN HEARS and OPENS THEN I will come in".

Christ is ON THE OUTSIDE knocking. ALL are enabled to hear and open, ALL are enabled to choose, all ARE DRAWN "I will DRAW ALL mankind UNTO ME" just as "ALL have sinned". - Some CHOOSE to Hear and open and some do not.

The text does not say "I stand at the door and knock THEN I SELECTIVE enable a FEW to HEAR, so that the REST of my knocking on other doors is pointless" as Calvinism "needs" it to say.

In Christ,

Bob

 

HEARS and OPENS is both an interesting order, is it possible to open without first hearing someone is at the door?

HEARS also is a qualifier I would think.

God Bless.
Bro. dallas

 

Christ goes to all and knocks on the door of ALL.

Christ refers in the Gospel to "hearing" as not simply the "ability to listen" but the CHOICE to obey what is being said.

Christ is not arguing that some can not "HEAR" in Rev 3- RATHER that you must HEAR AND OPEN the door. Calvinist "assume" that HEARING ALONE guarantees that you will open the door. The text does not make that "assumption".

All hear - but ALL do not HEAR AND OPEN. If any one HEARS AND OPENS then I will come in.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Alcott, my firm would store your Will for free!

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

Rev. 3 is spoken to previously regenerated individuals in membership of a backslidden church; the context testifies to this. In context it must be understood as a call to the church to return to fellowship

 

The church at Laodicea is neither hot nor cold, but lukewarm...complacent and comfortable, not back-slidden. The call is for any body (congregation) of similar condition to hear the knock of Jesus, open the door to Jesus so can enter and sup with that body, thereby heating up the fervency in the church.

The mainstream churches of America fit the description of the Church at Laodicea. Those congregations who do open the door and make Jesus their centerpiece are heated up in fervency, and become effective.

 

Wrong.

The text does NOT say "I stand at the door of those who hear".</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't say it did.

I agree.

This is no where in the text. It says nothing of ability. It simply says that for whoever hears and opens Christ will come in.

Calvinism doesn't need it to say this. What it says is exactly what Calvinism teaches.

 

A cold drink of water is refreshing; hot water is used for cleansing, this church is described as being lukewarm, this is good for nothing, not useful, therefore the Lord has threatened to 'spue' them out of his mouth.

In the lukewarmness is pictured ineffectiveness because of the nature of the church, having fallen into worldliness, it is not speaking of merely a complacency.

Bro. Dallas