Pst asserts position 2!Y1,
That's not what's being spoken of here.
The issue is, did Christ give up His righteousness to become sin, or did He have the sins of His people laid on Him, while still retaining His own righteousness?
In other words, was He filled with their sin, thereby giving up His own righteousness, or were our sins laid on Him, as a righteous and spotless Lamb, and His righteousness in the sight of His Father preserved?
To me, it represents His sinless perfection as the Son of the living God.
I think that it is important, because the nature of His sacrifice, and who He is, is in view.
What does Scripture say?
1) He was sinless ( John 8:46, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 7:26, 1 Peter 2:21-22 )
2) He was spotless ( 1 Peter 1:19 )
3) He is righteous ( not was ) and is righteousness incarnate ( Psalms 97:6, Psalms 98:2, Isaiah 62:2, Matthew 6:33, Romans 3:25-26 )
To me, His righteousness is perfect and endures forever...The Lord's righteousness is embodied in Christ, and imputed to believers.
To say that He became unrighteous, and then re-gained it, is a theory that Gup20 has proposed, and not proven by declaration of Scripture, from my reading of his posts...
It's a theory, and one I don't see being declared in all of Scripture, and I dare say is not developed at all.
In other words, it's going beyond what is written ( 1 Corinthians 4:6 ), and we as believers should not do that.
It may seem like a minor point, but from my perspective, it isn't.
If any of you think that I am being too hard, please tell me why.
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How is it that Christ's death is "for our sins"?
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Gup20
Active Member
Isa 1:27
Zion will be redeemed with justice And her repentant ones with righteousness.
Zion will be redeemed with justice And her repentant ones with righteousness.
Yet, because of Christ, ALL will be resurrected... the righteous and the wicked. So another plank of Calvinism is proven false (Limited Atonement).
Rom 5:18
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.
1Co 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
Acts 24:15
having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
John 5:28
“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Daniel 12:1
Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued.
2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
So Christ's work resurrects everyone from Adam's "corporate, universal judgement" so that all can be judged as individuals. Christ living a perfect and sinless life necessitates this. No longer is a corporate judgement just (because of one innocent person), so it must be repealed... that means cancelling death for all. Then they are judged again and those with Christ's righteousness get eternal life, and those without eternal damnation.
If all are guilty in Adam... simply forgiving Adam would save all. Yet Jesus was cursed on the cross. He died under Adam's judgement in spite of being without sin. That means Adam's judgement is not just and needs to be repealed in lieu of individual judgement. Therefore anyone affected by the death of Adam's judgement will be resurrected.
The gift is not faith, it's righteousness (life) by grace.
Rom 5:17
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 3:7
of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
Eph 4:7
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
Rom 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 3:7
of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power.
Eph 4:7
But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift.
The gift is given to all who are qualified as heirs of the promise (to Abraham). We qualify as heirs by faith in the gospel.
Gup20
Active Member
None of this is damaged by Jesus becoming sin, becoming a curse for us, and bearing our iniquity.
Do you believe Jesus was cursed by hanging on the cross?
Do you believe that Jesus became sin?
Do you believe that Jesus bore our iniquity upon himself?
Do you believe that the righteousness of the believer is their own righteousness or is it Christ's righteousness given to them by God?
In looking at the scriptures, it seems pretty clear they are saying Jesus was cursed, became sin, and had our iniquity laid upon him. I wouldn't hold to this unless the scriptures directly stated it. So once again, I post these verses for you to tackle, but I doubt you will touch them with a 50ft pole.
2Co 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—
Isa 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—
Isa 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.
In other words, it's going beyond what is written ( 1 Corinthians 4:6 ), and we as believers should not do that, though we may often be tempted to.
It may seem like a minor point, but from my perspective, it isn't.
It's exactly what was written... it's not beyond... I am getting it directly from the text. I've even begun using the exact phrases from the verses (made him to be sin, became a curse, and iniquity fell on him).
As I see it, there are many teachings these days that I am not going to stand for, and one of those is questioning Christ's righteousness, His sinlessness, and the embodiment of Who He is...
God's perfect righteousness come down to men.
Now it is YOU who is going beyond. I've never questioned Jesus' righteousness, nor his sinlessness, nor the embodiment of who He is. In fact, I've gone out of my way to draw the exact distinction 2 Corinthians does --
2Co 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him
A person WHO KNEW NO SIN has then BECOME SIN. Jesus never sinned. He was perfect, sinless, righteous in and of Himself... by The Law. But that perfect, holy, undeserving of penalty person became sin, became a curse, and all of our iniquity fell on him.
I dont' take it as an attack.
We are talking about hours of his life at most. Hanging on the cross, the sun went dark. This made him cursed by The Law of Moses.
Deuteronomy 21:23
his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.
This is why Paul brings it up in Galatians:
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—
Do you think Paul was wrong -- do you believe Jesus was not cursed by God?
This is not an emotional reaction, but a very concerned reaction to a theory which, from my perspective, seeks to undermine who Christ is, whether or not it's being understood that way.
In addition, if any of you think that I am being too hard on what I see as a false teaching ( because he hasn't, as yet, phrased it as a theory ), then please tell me why.
In my mind, it should never have been presented with such apparent conviction.
I'm defending my view because I think it's correct.
If Gup20 comes back and declares it a private theory of his own, then I will retract some of my comments in prior posts and ask for everyone's forgiveness accordingly.
May God, in His grace, bless you all with many good and praise-worthy gifts in the coming year.
I thought that was a given for every comment posted here. I'm giving you my interpretation... one I've been considering and studying for over a decade.
God revealed Galatians 3 and Genesis 15:5-6 to me -- specifically that what Abraham believed in Genesis 15:6 was the gospel of Jesus Christ. The rest has flowed from what God Himself told me and has been my attempt to understand it and build a framework around that one thing I know to be true.
Gal 3:6
Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Gen 15:5
And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham.
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
Gen 15:5
And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.”
6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
His human nature never become tainted by sin, as he always remained the Holy Son of God/Son of man!
Friend, this post is a bit long, but I think it may assist your view.
I have been looking for a Scripture to actually this thinking.
Two problems that I have run into:
1). I don't see from whom the believer was "purchased back." Rather, I see that we were slaved in sin, and purchased from that slave market of the "dead in trespasses and sin."
So, if that is the market (dead in trespasses and sin) from which one considers is the whom Christ purchased us, that is good thinking.
However, if the thinking is such a purchase was made to God or to Satan, there I haven't found such a Scripture - not that it may not be there, I just haven't found it.
God had nor has no obligation, to redeem, but was compelled by His love for the creation. (John 3). Remember that verse "God first loved us..." that is the cause for the crucifixion.
Because God was and is under no obligation, but compelled by love, the crucifixion (all that went into it from the garden to the resurrection and ascension) was not to reimburse God for some obligation or to buy back from Satan's hold; rather, to bring such as necessary to bring reconciliation to humankind - all such ordinances and law that stood between God and man.
2). What does the marks Christ bore in His body mean?
First, they are identification marks. Isaiah states that humankind considered these marks as retribution by God. That God was punishing the Son. But then Isaiah states that it was for our benifit - not retribution by God.
"WE esteemed Him smitten of God and afflicted. BUT He was wounded for our transgressions, was bruised for our iniquities the chastisement of our peace was laid upon Him, and with His strips we are healed..."
The focus of the passage is not God's wrath appeased, but the suffering was for our benefit. God loved the world (all creation) and because of that love and for the benefit of the whole creation, Christ suffered.
Second, what is not found in Scriptures (that I can find) this idea that God is repulsed by sin. I know that sounds strange to our ears that have been indoctrinated with the view that, "God cannot look upon sin." However, as explored in other threads, is has been shown such has been yanked out of context, for God most certainly does on a daily basis look and work with sin filled folks.
Prior to the Law, there was no accounting for sin (Romans 5:13) That is what the Scripture state. There was not a process for holding accountability. When Moses came on the scene, God, through Moses,
What it amounts to is that in Christ the ordinances and the law were both established and satisfied. The redeemed are those who are in "no condemnation" all others condemned already. from what does this condemnation come? From sin? Or from the Law? It is The Law. Again, see Romans 5 that until the law there was no accounting for sin.
Fortunately, this only a part of the fulness concerning God's wrath.
As shared on numerous other threads, what humankind considered as "smitten of God and afflicted" was in fact not God, but the expressions of the natural state of the ungodly toward any and all that are righteous, yet calling it godly - Saul (Paul) is the example of this thinking and he admitted it throughout his life.
God's wrath is satisfied toward the redeemed (no condemnation) but the wrath toward the ungodly was not mitigated. Hence the sorrows of the saints collected in the bowls poured out upon the earth in the times of tribulation - those referred to God's bowls of wrath.
Admittedly, there are those who consider the blood of Christ was not for all, that atonement is limited to only those who are appointed to eternal live.
Yet, as other threads have explored it is solidly biblical that Christ's blood was shed for all creation (1 John). That the preaching of Paul was that God was reconciled (no wrath) with humankind, that belief was the only requirement. For the unbelievers, the wrath remains because they are unbelievers. (John 3).
It is not a matter of lack of blood, not a matter of a lack of the provision of reconciliation, but as the Scriptures state,
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him."
God has stored up towards sinners His wrath though, and that shall be appeased by either the sinner bearing the full brunt of that directed towards them die to their sins, or else Jesus will!
Gup20
Active Member
Yes, I'd agree with that. Despite him never succumbing to sin, he did become sin, he was cursed by God according to the Law of Moses, and he did have the iniquity of us all fall on him.
But for this to make sense, you have to understand the sin nature and how it works.
Heb 2:14-16 NASB - 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.
Jhn 8:33
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
Jhn 8:33
They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
1Jo 4:18
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
The root of the sin nature is the fear of death. Jesus had no fear of death because he knew that was what he was there to do. He was doing it out of love. Jesus became the propitiation for our sin on that cross... our scapegoat... the sacrificial Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world and bore it upon himself. Jesus' nature never changed, and he never sinned. Yet he became sin as a guilt offering for us. Furthermore, that Jesus had perfect faith in God's promise to not leave him abandoned in death.
1) this is not a matter of calvinist arguments nor how I would or would not support such arguments.
I personally do not endorse "limited atonement" as taught by the typical calvinist. I find it has placed emphasis upon thinking above Scriptures; however, I do support the more biblical view of limited redemption. One is either a believer or not. For those that believer "there is no condemnation." For the unbeliever, "the wrath of God abides on them." God is the determiner of those who are given the authority to believe. (John 1)
Calvinism is not on debate in this thread. Please do not make it so. Especially with me. It is for another part of the forum, and not appropriate to the discussion.
2) All would and will be resurrected anyway. Christ rose as "first fruits" of believers is that resurrection of life. Eternal life that no believer experiences death but is immediately when this physical body ceases to sustain itself is in the presence of the Lord. The unbeliever experiences no such eternal life, but reside in that eternal flames called "the second death."
It is not that all are guilty in Adam, rather that "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
This means that just as all in the flesh of Adam die, yet, the believer is made alive in Christ that the grave has no victory and the death (physical cessation) has no "sting" (facing of condemnation).
Because the responsibility of sin rests upon the individual and not on Adam (for all have sinned), then "Adam's judgement" cannot be presented as an excuse for any of humankind. It is not true that God forgiving Adam would have any bearing upon the rest of humanity.
The above is presenting grace as an object. Rather it is the "unmerited favor of God."
Such grace (unmerited favor) cannot nor does it have the authority but to show that God has looked with favor (as He did Mary) upon someone.
You posted Eph 2:8. Here is "unmerited favor" in action;
"For by the "unmerited favor" (of God) are you saved through (by) faith, and that (faith) is not of yourself, it is the gift of God, not of work(s) lest any person boast."
It would seem unfortunate that you have extended grace as having the authority of redemption rather than showing it properly as God demonstrating His authority to extend "unmerited favor" and faith (approval - "for without faith it is impossible to please Him") to whom He chooses.
Faith is the gift of God. It is dispensed by God (each believer is given that measure of faith) and for which that believer is to display by work (James).
According to Romans, the wrath remains for all who do not believe.
I will give you purely my opinion, and not supported one way or the other by Scriptures.
The second death (lake of fire) is prepared for the devil and the fallen angels, however the Scriptures do record that those who are not in the Lambs book of life are also cast into that eternal punishment.
I consider this the wrath of rejection of reconciliation made by the unbelievers. This is that wrath that comes upon those "condemned already."
However, I also see in Scriptures the bowls of wrath poured out upon the earth.
Is it proper to consider some double wrath of God?
No, but the promise of God that "vengeance is mine, I will repay" and then the souls of martyrs crying out (Rev 6) “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” followed 10 chapters latter for the bowls of the wrath of God to be poured out.
The contents of those bowls could very well be the vengeance stored up by God of all the sorrows the saints endured, and He will pour out upon the creation.
Remember this is totally my opinion for the Scriptures do not give such information, but I do not find any other place in the timeline of history in which God visits that which the folks of Rev. 6 cry out about.
I do think you are misdirected in the view that Jesus had to endure the wrath for sinners rather than the wrath of sinners at the trials and crucifixion.
I see the Word becoming flesh, Christ humbling Himself even to death on a cross, becoming a curse for us and the "Last Adam".
Gup20
Active Member
Gup20
Active Member
How is that different from my position? Sorry, I'm not following.
I do not believe that Christ was ever viewed as unrighteous. What I believe is that God offered Himself by becoming man. I don't think that God ever considered Christ to be sinful or unrighteous, but instead the Father looked upon Christ as His beloved Son in Whom He was well pleased even on the Cross. Becoming a curse for us is taking on our humanity, but not at the expense of His righteousness.
Gup20
Active Member
Gal 3:21
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.
This verse is what forms the basis of the notion that Jesus giving up His LIFE meant that he was giving up His righteousness. The verse uses life and righteousness synonymously.
Rom 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
It stands to reason that if death comes by sin, then life comes by righteousness. For Christ to die and give up His life means He gave up (freely and volitional) His righteousness.
Rom 5:21
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
EDIT: by the way - my theories are not conditional upon Christ "giving up" his righteousness, and it doesn't seem to matter either way functionally whether or not he retained some of it (weird, but ok). I just don't think the scripture bears that out. It seems He was made to be sin, was cursed, and had our sin upon Him. How someone has sin on them and remains righteous is an odd matter for the Law of Moses. It's pretty black and white. Functionally, whether or not Christ gave up his righteousness or whether he just borrowed some to Abraham, it doesn't exactly matter. I just think it makes better sense of the scripture this way.
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Gup20
Active Member
At some literal point, God had to see Jesus as having sin, just as at some literal point God has to see us as having righteousness. It can't simply be an unattached idea. Just as the animal sacrifices were seen in the Old Testament to contain the sin of the offerer before they were killed. Sometimes this was for an individual, and sometimes for the whole nation.
Job 29:14
“I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.
Isa 61:10
I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,
My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
“I put on righteousness, and it clothed me;
My justice was like a robe and a turban.
Isa 61:10
I will rejoice greatly in the LORD,
My soul will exult in my God;
For He has clothed me with garments of salvation,
He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness,
As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland,
And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
Would it help to think of Jesus being "clothed" in our sin (or perhaps stripped naked of his righteous robe - whichever metaphor floats your boat)?
If one takes this verse in isolation, then according to Deuteronomy any hanging of any type is cursed by God.
But that cannot stand. For from a practical standpoint not all that are hung are cursed by God.
So, what is actually meant in the context of this verse being used by Paul?
I don't believe so. Were God to have looked upon Christ as if He were a sinner (in any form) then God would cease being the God of Scripture.
The verse in Deuteronomy did not make one cursed because they hung on a tree. In the context of Paul I believe there are a couple of things going on. The Jews considered Him cursed of God (I think the passage in Deuteronomy sets this stage). By becoming man Christ also subjected Himself to man's curse.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Oops...
Looking at it again, I'm convinced that I've misused Isaiah 62:2 out of context, as well as Matthew 6:33.
That's what I get for "firing from the hip".
However, 1 Corinthians 1:30 and Philippians 3:9, I'm still persuaded of as speaking of Him being righteousness personified.
My own personal theory, for clarification.
Would I teach it for doctrine?
I'd have to think about that, and it would depend on the council of other believers.
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Dave G
Well-Known Member
How about the other way around...
"And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; ( for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God; ) that thy land be not defiled, which the Lord thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance." ( Deuteronomy 21:22-24 )
He that is accursed will be hanged on a tree?
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