How long have you studied election?

You are correct. I was thinking in terms of repentance and didn't want this to become a discussion of what repentance was.

 

Wait a minute now. If you won the lottery, and it doesn't matter whether you paid for the winning ticket or some one gave you the winning ticket. What you would have to boast about is the proceeds from the win.

That's what you have when God gives you something, you have the proceeds! And that is what you would boast about! That is why Election is a false doctrine! And you blame it on God!

 

What would you boast about? That you got something you didn't deserve? That's not the way it works. That doesn't even make sense. What does a lottery winner boast about? That he was smart enough to pick the right numbers? Hardly.

When God gives you something, he gives it to you. If you did something to deserve it, or did something to get it that someone else didn't do, then you could boast.

At the heart of your problem is a misunderstanding of depravity that makes election necessary. We are all wicked sinners. And the fact that God saves one and not the other is nothing to boast about. It is something to be humbled by because you didn't do anything to get it.

Election is not a false doctrine. It is a necessary doctrine because without it no one would get saved.

 

I attribute my salvation to God and God alone.

My soul shall make her boast in the LORD: the humble shall hear thereof, and be glad.

 

Sin!

As it has been said,

 

Have you ever heard it said, that all men are Calvinists when they pray? That is not said to imply that all men approached this thread prayerfully.

 

Ya see Larry, that last sentence is a boast! You limit salvation to only those who "are elected", you include your self and you have something to boast about.

You boast about what you got, not how you got it.

 

Do you know what the word "condition" means? Let me give you the meaning from the Oxford Dictionary:

"something demanded or required as a prerequsite to the granting or performance of something else; a provision, a stipulation"

Regardless of the unbiblical nonsense that Calvinism teaches on "Unconditional Election", where they that there is no condition man must meet before God chooses to save him. As I have shown, NNE can be saved before they repent and have faith in Jesus Christ. These are prerequsites for anyone before they can get saved. Jesus makes this very clear about this is His teachings in the Gospels, as do the other writers in the New Testament.

And, please do not be so arrogant to assume that I don't know Calvinistic dogma.

 

Whetstone, give it a break. You post these dumb threads about how long you have studied election, as if it matters a hoot. What you are really doing here is do get all the Calvinists to post some more nonsense about the unbiblical teaching that they hold to on election. You guys make me laugh. You guys come over so arrogant and self-righteous, when you are trying to show that by your longer studying, you know more. Hogwash. God will probably get more out of a new believer, before their minds have been twisted by the Calvinistic nonsense, that He would from you guys.

 

Wes, do you even deny conditional election?

 

Simply untrue, and you know it. My last sentence was true but not because of my limits. It is a matter of what God said. I have nothing to boast about. I am no different than the non-elect, except that God for his own reasons chose me. He did not choose me because I chose him. That would give me something to boast about.

 

Yes

No need to. I know what it means.

Your problem is that you tried to disprove election with a verse about repentance. All calvinists agree that if man doesn't repent he will perish. Repentance, as all calvinists will teach you, is the condition for not perishing. However, that verse is not about election. You should have noticed that by the absence of "election" in the verse. Sometimes the obvious gets overlooked.

Yes, and every calvinist agrees. But once again you prove that you do not know what you are talking about. You are yet again confusing salvation and election. There are conditions to be saved (belief and repentance). There are no conditions to be elect. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that. If you would simply listen to us, you would know that.

There is no assumption involved whatsoever. It is a clear fact that you have made evident time and time again, even in this very post. And there is no arrogance involved. It saddens my heart to see you continually say this stuff, when you should know better. I feel embarrassed for you. For the life of me, I can't figure out why you keep doing it.

 

Define it as you understand it and maybe I'll respond!

 

Another Calvinist false hood.

Show me where repentance is the key to everlasting life!

Here's a little sample of what you are up against

Seems, scripturally speaking, ya'll be outgunned, outmanned, and outpreached!

 

Yes, another heresy in what Larry says:

"Yes, and every calvinist agrees. But once again you prove that you do not know what you are talking about. You are yet again confusing salvation and election. There are conditions to be saved (belief and repentance). There are no conditions to be elect. If you knew what you were talking about, you would know that. If you would simply listen to us, you would know that"

Calvinism has got it all backwards. According to the Bible, you repent and believe the Gospel, and you are saved. AFTER this, you are part of the "Church" (ekklesia), which is the "called out ones". Acts 2:47 says, "praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added those who were being saved, to the ekklesia". NOTE the "order" here. The "Lord added" to the company of the "elect", "those who were being saved". The so-called "election" came AFTER they were "saved" through faith and repentance in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Calvinism, you say, teaches the opposite.

As I have said before, Calvinism clearly contradicts the Bible.

 

Yes, and Calvinism agrees with this.

Yes, it is only upon faith that one becomes part of the church. Calvinists agree with this.

Yep, the Lord adds to his church by bringing people to salvation through faith. Calvinist agree here, too.

No, he added to the company of the church, he added to the company of believers. It doesn't say he added to the company of the elect. You've added something to the text.

No, they were elect before the foundation of the world, just like Paul and the Ephesian believers were.

For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we may be holy and unblemished in his sight in love. (Ephesians 1:4)

They were elect from the beginning, like the Thessalonian believers were.

God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. (2 Thessalonians 2:13)

Calvinism teaches that election comes before the foundation of the world because that's what scripture teaches.

Calvinism teaches that becoming a member of the the number of the saints comes at the point of faith because that's what the scripture teaches.

All you've done in your post is prove the last one, which Calvinists wholeheartedly agree with.

 

What is your basis for equating "ekklēsia" ("ἐκκλησία") and "eklektos" ("ἐκλεκτός")?

 

So where's the heresy?

That's what Calvinism believes. Why do you act like we don't? Do you really not know, even though you have been told many, many times?

Calvinists believe this too. Why do you act like we don't? Do you really not know, even though you have been told many, many times?

How about just beginning by noting the words themselves. It doesn't say anything about the "elect" in that verse. If you pay attention to what was actually said, you know that you did not properly explain teh text, since the text says nothing about adding to the elect.

Show us this from Scripture. Your own post didn't even prove this, much less Scripture. Why do you never use Scripture to support your view? CAn you show any place in Scripture where election comes after faith and repentance? Many people have said that it does, but no one has yet been able to show where God said that.

You have certainly said it before, but you have yet to prove it. You don't use Scripture properly; you misrepresent what Calvinists believe. Why? Can you not deal with what we actually believe rather than making it up? It is dishonest to pretend that Calvinists deny that faith and repentance are not necessary for salvation. It is dishonest to pretend that Calvinists don't believe that being a part of the church comes after faith and repentance. Yet you persist with such dishonest statements, even after being told multiple times what is true.

You will not win this icthus. You are flat out wrong about what we believe, and you should know it by now. There is no reasonable explanation for your continued dishonest misrepresentations. You know better.

 

No problem. "Perishing" is the opposite of "everlasting life," and so Luke 13:3, the verse under discussion proves that very thing. Others do as well.