how many Calvinists here hold to Double predestination?

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Which is why I don't have a problem w/ reprobation.

No absoluter ever will.

 

[InTheLight]

How many Calvinists here hold to double predestination?

As many as God has predestinated to believe that way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ohhhhhhh, I get it. There are different types of Calvinists! Ahhhhhhh.....fascinating!

Timmy, do they teach that in school? And if so, than who is right? So confusing

 

[Winman]

Which is why I don't have a problem w/ reprobation.

Thank you Tim. We will never agree, but I do respect a consistent Calvinist.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Thank you Tim. We will never agree, but I do respect a consistent Calvinist.

Hey Tim, Isn't that great? Now you can add "Consistent Calvinist" to your signature page. WOW!!!!! :thumbs:

 

[Greektim]

Hey Tim, Isn't that great? Now you can add "Consistent Calvinist" to your signature page. WOW!!!!! :thumbs:

Have I done something to upset you? Or are you just in that kind of mood? If the latter, I get it. I get in those snarky moods often as well. Just wondering if I offended you in some way.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Have I done something to upset you? Or are you just in that kind of mood? If the latter, I get it. I get in those snarky moods often as well. Just wondering if I offended you in some way.

Noooooooo....I was just joking. You probably didn't see it.:wavey:

 

[Grasshopper]

Well,you've started off with a faulty premise. Classic Reformed theology does not hold to equal ultimacy. Even Herman Hoeksema,falsely called a hyper-Calvinist rejected that. But he held to double predestination as have many Reformed-minded Christians through the centuries. Long before Calvin Gotteschalk (806-868) was imprisoned for decades for his strong predestinarian doctrine.

Here is snip of what R.C.Sproul said in his book "What is Reformed Theology?"

"Given that the Bible teaches both election and particularism, we cannot avoid the subject of double predestination. The question then is not if predestination is double,but how it is double. There are different views of double predestination. One of them is so frightening that many shun altogether the use of the term double predestination. This scary view is called equal ultimacy,and is based on a symmetrical view of predestination. It sees a symmetry between the work of God in election and his work in reprobation. It seeks an exact balance between the two. Just as God intervenes in the lives of the elect to create faith in their hearts, so he similarly intervenes in the hearts of the reprobate to work unbelief. The latter is inferred from biblical passages that speak of God's hardening people's hearts."

Sproul goes on to say that Classical Reformed theology rejects the doctrine of equal ultimacy.

Expanded quote:



Given that the bible teaches both election and particularism, we cannot avoid the subject of double predestination. The question then is not if predestination is double, but how it is double. There are different views of double predestion. One of them is so frightening that many shun altogether the use of the term double predestion. This scary view is called equal ultimacy, and is based on a symmetrical view of predestion. It sees a symmetry between the work of God in election and his work in reporbation. It seeks and exact balance between the two. Just as God intervenes in the lives of the elect to create faith in their hearts, so he similarly intervenes in the hearts of the reporbate to work unbelief. The later in inferred from biblical passages that speak of God's hardening people's hearts.

Classical Reformed theology rejects the doctrine of equal ultimacy. Thought some have labeled this doctrine "hyper-Calvinism" I perfer to call it "sub-Calvinism," or even more precisely, "anti-Calvinism." Though Calvinism certainly holds to a kind of double predestination, it does not embrace equal ultimacy. The Reformed view makes a crucial distinction between God's positive and negitive decrees. God positively decrees the election of some and he negatibely decrees the reprobation of others. The difference between positive and negative does not refer to the outcome (though the outcome indeed is either positive or negitive), but to the manner by which God brings his decrees to pass in history.

The postive side refers to God's active intervention in the lives of the elect to work faith in their hearts. The negative refers, not to God's working unbelief in the hearts of the reporbate, but simply to his passing them by and withholding his regenerating grace from them.

 

[Luke2427]

I'd say so. But I don't speak for all the reformed people of the world.

I agree.

I do think, however, that the infra position only exists to try to keep God from being culpable for sin.

It does not exist, in my opinion, because it is logical or biblical.

 

[Luke2427]

I thought Calvinists believed if God allows something, then God ordained that thing? No?

If so, if God passes you by and "allows" you to go to hell, then he ordained it.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

As usual, you're not listening. That's what we are saying. That is EXACTLY what I believe God does.

And I believe God gets to do whatever he wants to do and worms like you and I would be fools to question him on it.

I don't believe God has to abide by my standards of fairness. And God does not believe he has to abide by them either.

God is God and you are not. God does as he pleases with his creatures and that is his divine prerogative.

Anybody who has a problem with that is wicked down in his core.

All godly people are glad to have God do as he pleases.

 

[Winman]

As usual, you're not listening. That's what we are saying. That is EXACTLY what I believe God does.

If I said EXACTLY what you believe, then obviously I was listening. Duh.

And I believe God gets to do whatever he wants to do and worms like you and I would be fools to question him on it.

And that is where you and I differ. Even Abraham questioned God whether he would do right.

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

This is where you and your hyper-Calvinism goes completely off the tracks. Abraham absolutely held God to a standard that he understood. Abraham expected God to spare the righteous, and not to punish them for the sins another person committed.

And God agreed with Abraham and said he would not destroy the city if there were 10 righteous there. As it was, he brought out Lot, his wife, and two of his daughters, the only righteous persons in the city.

I don't believe God has to abide by my standards of fairness. And God does not believe he has to abide by them either.

And you are wrong, and this story in Genesis 18 proves that.

God is God and you are not. God does as he pleases with his creatures and that is his divine prerogative.

No, God is GOOD. He cannot do evil. He cannot lie, he does not tempt others. He can justly punish the wicked however.

Anybody who has a problem with that is wicked down in his core.

And anybody who believes as you do is IGNORANT to the core.

All godly people are glad to have God do as he pleases.

How would you know?

 

[Luke2427]

If I said EXACTLY what you believe, then obviously I was listening. Duh.



And that is where you and I differ. Even Abraham questioned God whether he would do right.

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

This is where you and your hyper-Calvinism goes completely off the tracks. Abraham absolutely held God to a standard that he understood. Abraham expected God to spare the righteous, and not to punish them for the sins another person committed.

And God agreed with Abraham and said he would not destroy the city if there were 10 righteous there. As it was, he brought out Lot, his wife, and two of his daughters, the only righteous persons in the city.



And you are wrong, and this story in Genesis 18 proves that.



No, God is GOOD. He cannot do evil. He cannot lie, he does not tempt others. He can justly punish the wicked however.



And anybody who believes as you do is IGNORANT to the core.



How would you know?

Psalm 115:3
But our God is in the heavens; He does whatever He pleases.


Ezekiel 36
22Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. 23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes. 24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. 28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you. 30And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen. 31Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.

33Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded. 34And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by. 35And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited. 36Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

This thread is closed.