How many Calvinists on the board?

While I might agree with your circle in a circle illustration,...no, I do not even agree with that, I certainly do not agree with the "utter sinfulness" of "fallen man" EXCEPT in comparison against the Holiness of God! Anything, when compared to perfect purity, appears to be "totally corrupt" in that it is not totally pure.

God did not make man to be God, therefore man could never be Holy God. So, such a comparison is invalid. God created man to be man, creating man out of dirt! Dirt does not have Holiness as an an attribute. The only Holy Ground is that where God's presence is! Therefore any attempt to compare man against God is an academic excercise in futility!

Besides sinfulness is a relative term in that, according to Jesus, the consequence of the least sin is equivalent in gravity to the consequence of the greatest sin. So according to your doctrine, the person who tells the tiniest of white lies, is equal in all ways the most vile and depraved of characters. And that simply is not true! Though both are guilty of sin!

However, ALL sin has been atoned, so the most vile of men that comes to faith in God, is better off than the most holy of white lie tellers that lacks faith in God. The one with faith in God bypasses the second death and enjoys everlasting life, while the white lie teller lacking faith is cast into the lake of fire.

 

I guess circumlocution works for some, but it lacks logic for me.

Cheers,

Jim

 

two things:

#1- make up your mind when you post. this is evidence that you don't think about what you say until you've already said it.

#2- Would you rather have a big circle with man on the outside and a little circle with God on the inside? Would you be more comfortable with that?

 

From a non-calvinist (by the grace of God):

What you don't get from Calvinists is this (and of course they will disagree, because they are never wrong):

God is A Sovereign!

What you always hear from calvinists is their mantra, God is sovereign.

But what you don't hear from them is this:
The sovereignty of God is one of His attributes. It is only one of the things He does.

The Living God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Three in One, is a Person.

The primary attribute that the Living God has put forth as defining Himself to humanity is LOVE.

This is what the Apostle John understood very well. That is why John 3 is so important. It shows us that the Living God, Who has been revealed to humanity as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, is a Loving and Kind God, Who loves all that He has created (that is, the world).

I saw this the other day:

From the book, titled:
Calvinism in the Las Vegas Airport

Jake, a pious Calvinist elder (played by George C. Scott in the film Hardcore)
(speaking about Calvinism)

“Well, I admit it’s a little confusing when you look at it from the outside.
You have to try to look at it from the inside.”

This is the crux of the matter for, I guess, most non-calvinists. We are not going to be able to see calvinism from the inside. It looks more than a little confusing from the outside.

So, for Calvinists, when you say that God is sovereign, do you really mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are sovereign?

If so, could you speak sometime to the issue of how all three of them are sovereign at the same time? I know that they are One. But I hardly ever hear a calvinist talk about the Father, or the Son, or the Holy Spirit. The God that Calvinists seem to talk about is One that was revealed to Israel in the Old Testament. The revelation that God gave to Israel about Himself was incomplete. Jesus gave a more complete revelation of God when He was on earth. Jesus revealed God to be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

It would be nice to know that Calvinists understand the relationship between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in what they teach.

 

two things:

#1- make up your mind when you post. this is evidence that you don't think about what you say until you've already said it.

#2- Would you rather have a big circle with man on the outside and a little circle with God on the inside? Would you be more comfortable with that? </font>[/QUOTE]While the circle in circle illustration seems innocent enough, it implies that God allows sin within himself, and that cannot happen else He become unholy. Therefore I cannot agree with the circle in circle illustration.