How many gospels are there?

1. Can you demonstrate from Scripture why we should not do this?

2. Thank you.

 

Well you can read through the Lordship Savlation posts and see plenty of Scripture evidence. But there is a gospel that calls for faith plus works as demonstrated in the book of James and then there is a gospel that calls for faith alone in the finished works of Christ alone which is taught by Paul in Ephesians. Those two messages can not be harmonized in the same context. Nor do you find any OT type teaching anything other than death/shed blood/substitute for eternal salvation.

You're welcome .

 

1. I understand the investment you have put into the LS discussion. But neither one of us will be able to sway the other.

 

That's my whole point. And the only way that is possible is if they aren't talking about the same subject. If they are then it is impossible for them not to contradict one another, because one says no works and the other says works. There's no way to harmonize that when trying to place them in the same context.

If you want to call it one gospel with different appeals I don't have a huge problem with that, but we must remember that grace through faith apart from works is not what James is talking about.

We are never really told of Abraham's salvation experience. Most people use Genesis 15 as when he was saved, but that's not possible, because he believed God and followed God before Gen. 15.

What do you mean evidenced saving faith? And yes it pointed to the coming of the Lamb of God as The Sacrifice once and for all.

 

1. We are in agreement with James.

2. I am not the one who quotes Gen. 15:6 as justifying faith on the part of Abraham. Paul is (Rom.4:3, 22; Gal.3:6).

3. You will have to ask Paul how he could do such a thing.

4. "Evidenced saving faith" because I believe every is save essentially the same way, through faith in God/in Christ, both OT and NT, respectively, with Abraham as a prototype.

 

1. I see James in the same light.

2. James 2:14 is often overlooked, but that sets the stage for the rest of the discussion.

3. Didn't Luther recant on his position of James?

 

So unregenerate people are able to believe God and then act in a positive manner on what they are commanded to do? That's interesting. I've never heard anyone say that before. Can you explain how that happens?

 

1. How did you get those questions from what I wrote?

2. I am at a genuine lost. Please, guide me along.

3. Then, tell me how is Paul using Genesis 15:6 in those justifying by faith contexts?

 

But the question is outworking of what kind of faith. You are trying to imply that the faith in question is faith in the Substitute. That is impossible, because the faith James talks about has to be a present reality. Faith in the Substitute is a one-time saving faith, not a life-long faith.

Again context, context, context. James is not talking about what you are talking about.

Which is it TC Greek? Do you agree with me or npetreley. It can't be both . Either James and Paul are talking about the same thing or they are not. Npetreley says they are and I say they are not. You are riding the fence . Time to jump off on one side or the other.

Agreed. And that's the EXACT reason why James isn't talking about eternally saving faith. The original langauges show he is not as well as context.

 

From what you wrote you said Abraham wasn't saved until Gen. 15. But Abraham believed God and was obedient to God long before Gen. 15. So I'm wondering how Abraham could be unregenerate yet believe God and even more than that obey what He was told to do.

 

1. In James 2:14 the we have the rhetorical question, μὴ δύναται ἡ πίστις σῶσαι αὐτόν; "Can this faith faith save him?" μὴ expects the negative.

2. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting of it. Yes, we are justified by faith alone, but justifying faith is never alone. That seems to be the import of James 2:14-26.

3. I am not strandling the fence. I don't see how you got that from what I wrote. Paul addresses how a person is justified before God, and James addresses how a person's faith is justified before God.

4. I do not see Paul and James addressing the same thing. I don't think npetreley is saying that either.

5. In a sense he is addressing eternal saving faith. If you have it, it will be seen in your works or else your faith is on the same level as the demons (v.19).

6. I will like to see you demonstrate from the Greek the opposite.

 

James does not even use the word "gospel" in the Epistle of James.

HankD

 

There is only one gospel. The false gospel that Paul references in Galatians is actually and anti-gospel. The word 'gospel' is attached to it not to give it validity as a gospel but to expose it as an anti-gospel. The same principle would apply if we asked whether there was more than one Christ. There is only one Christ, although there are many anti-Christs. These anti-Christs are not other Christs, they are imposter's and adversaries of the one and only Christ.

 

And your point is...

 

1. But the object of our faith is Jesus Christ (Jas.2:1), without whom there is no gospel, the good news.

2. Because our faith is in Christ, it fleshes itself out in appropriate works.

3. The gospel produces our faith (Rom.10:17).

4. Though the word "gospel" does not appear in James, one cannot read James without "sensing" the gospel message.