How many here hold to the heresy of Pelagianism

[JonC]

If Pst is not true, how then can God freely forgive and justify lost sinners, and yet still remain holy judge?

Biblically. But that's another topic (too late to hijack this thread, we're already past due on being closed).

 

[Yeshua1]

But you are confusing Pelagianism with "seeing people as not affected by the fall".

You are also calling into question the fact that Calvinism (Calvin's own writings and the Canons of Dort) affirm human free agency (that men are able to freely decide themselves).

So I take it your real answer is that no one here has affirmed Pelagianism (no one on the BB has denied the necessity of God working in the life of those who will believe towards salvation) and you just hesitate to admit it....correct?

Neither Calvin nor any of the Confessions in use, would define humans as being capable by sheer freewill into deciding to accept or reject Jesus as their Lord!

 

[JonC]

Neither Calvin nor any of the Confessions in use, would define humans as being capable by sheer freewill into deciding to accept or reject Jesus as their Lord!

But that is not what you said. You said:

Those who see themselves as not affect by the fall, and still able to freely decide themselves...

What you are talking about now is called Pelagianism (that man, without divine assistance or intervention, chooses God). My point here is that no one on the Baptist Board has said such (this is a strawman argument).

 

[AustinC]

But that is not what you said. You said:

What you are talking about now is called Pelagianism (that man, without divine assistance or intervention, chooses God). My point here is that no one on the Baptist Board has said such (this is a strawman argument).

I disagree. Some on this board have stated that claim.

 

[JonC]

I disagree. Some on this board have stated that claim.

Perhaps.

I just have not seen any.

 

[AustinC]

Perhaps.

I just have not seen any.

You've seen it. You declare their position is not Pelagian. I say their position is Pelagian. You carry the big stick, therefore you can dictate your position.

 

[JonC]

You've seen it. You declare their position is not Pelagian. I say their position is Pelagian. You carry the big stick, therefore you can dictate your position.

No. You are wrong. I have not seen Pelagianism on this board.

I do not declare anyone's position "not Pelagianism". If they meet the definition then that is what they are. YOU are ignoring that words actually have meaning.

But I do think that we need to be accurate and not foolishly declare people to hold a view that they have denied. If you do not know what Pelagianism is then perhaps you need to learn the term before you start trying to put people into that cagtegory.

Pelagianism is a very simple belief. It is the denial of the 5th century Catholic doctrine of original sin and the belief men have perfect freedom to do right or wrong without divine intervention.

The cannons of the Council of Carthage declared Pelagianism a heresy because it:

1. rejected that infants need to be baptized on the account of sin
2. rejected that death came to Adam through sin
3. rejected the work of God in sanctification (to avoid sins)
4. rejected that it is Christ in us who strengthens us to follow God's commands
5. rejects that without God's grace it is impossible to perform truly good works.
6. rejects that we are by nature sinners who fall short of the glory of God.

You are just using words that sound bad to insult people who disagree with your view.

Given your method of argument here, you are just as guilty of Pelagianism because you reject that infants need to be baptized on account of sin.

 

[Salty]

This thread shall be closed no sooner than 1159 PM Eastern time - 759 pm Pacific time

 

[AustinC]

No. You are wrong. I have not seen Pelagianism on this board.

I do not declare anyone's position "not Pelagianism". If they meet the definition then that is what they are. YOU are ignoring that words actually have meaning.

But I do think that we need to be accurate and not foolishly declare people to hold a view that they have denied. If you do not know what Pelagianism is then perhaps you need to learn the term before you start trying to put people into that cagtegory.

Pelagianism is a very simple belief. It is the denial of the 5th century Catholic doctrine of original sin and the belief men have perfect freedom to do right or wrong without divine intervention.

The cannons of the Council of Carthage declared Pelagianism a heresy because it:

1. rejected that infants need to be baptized on the account of sin
2. rejected that death came to Adam through sin
3. rejected the work of God in sanctification (to avoid sins)
4. rejected that it is Christ in us who strengthens us to follow God's commands
5. rejects that without God's grace it is impossible to perform truly good works.
6. rejects that we are by nature sinners who fall short of the glory of God.

You are just using words that sound bad to insult people who disagree with your view.

Given your method of argument here, you are just as guilty of Pelagianism because you reject that infants need to be baptized on account of sin.

You don't see Pelagianism here, I do. You win. You carry the big stick.
Your use of plausible deniability is impressive, JonC.

 

[JonC]

You don't see Pelagianism here, I do. You win. You carry the big stick.
Your use of plausible deniability is impressive, JonC.

Interesting. I win not because I "carry the big stick" but because you have no argument and look for an excuse to retreat.

I think (hope) that you at least understand why those you accuse of Pelagianism (those who have stated no one comes to God except God draw them, like MB) are not really Pelagians any more than you are for rejecting infant baptism.

Answer this - how can someone who believes that man cannot turn to God unless God draw man (people on the BB) also hold that man without God man chooses God (Pelagianism)???

 

[AustinC]

Interesting. I win not because I "carry the big stick" but because you have no argument and look for an excuse to retreat.

I think (hope) that you at least understand why those you accuse of Pelagianism (those who have stated no one comes to God except God draw them, like MB) are not really Pelagians any more than you are for rejecting infant baptism.

Answer this - how can someone who believes that man cannot turn to God unless God draw man (people on the BB) also hold that man without God man chooses God (Pelagianism)???

My argument was fine. You just strain the gnat to tell yourself you are superior. It doesn't matter if I am right because you will twist enough to tell me I am wrong. Oh well. As with every thread you are on, you may have the last word.

 

[JonC]

My argument was fine. You just strain the gnat to tell yourself you are superior. It doesn't matter if I am right because you will twist enough to tell me I am wrong. Oh well. As with every thread you are on, you may have the last word.

It is not being superior. Words, even Pelagianism, have meanings.

It is not an opinion - no one here has stated that man turns to God apart from that being the work of God.

Definitions are objective. I cannot change the meanings of words. You cannot either.

And I do not know why you devolve into ad hominem. This is twice in a very short span. Usually people do that when they have no argument and can't admit it as an attempt to hide the fact.

 

[Salty]

This thread has been closed