How many here On BB See themselves As being Amyraldians?

[JesusFan]

if not strictly Cal/Arm...

Any other of us posting here?

 

[TomVols]

Some would say I am, some would say I'm not. Both would do so with derision, I'm sure :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

Some would say I am, some would say I'm not. Both would do so with derision, I'm sure :smilewinkgrin:

IF one tends to hold to doctrines that Giod does elect people on indivdual basis, it is irresistible, but that faith preceeds regeneration...

that Jesus did die for propiation on whole World...

is that considered one to be an Amyraldian?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Well, if someone could tell me what a "Amyraldian" is, I might be able to say if I are one! :laugh:

 

[JesusFan]

Well, if someone could tell me what a "Amyraldian" is, I might be able to say if I are one! :laugh:

basically, would be anyone who while holding to the belief that God does elect those of his choosing to Eternal Life in Christ, and grants them the means to get saved...

believe in Unlimited Atonment provision of the Cross, propiation for whole World
believe that faith precedes regeneration , that though God does quicking one to be now in a position to actually turn from sin unto jesus, but must place personal faith in Him to actually be saved
believe that one saved will be kept by God eternally secured in Christ

tend to see God having 2 Divine Wills functioning
Direct/determintive and permissive/allowed

basically mediating position between High end calvisnism and classic Arminianism!

What is interesting is that high amd moderate Cals argue over if Calvin himself was in their groups!

 

[TomVols]

I don't know if all Amyraldians would hold to these distinctions. Some would say regeneration preceeds faith and that the atonement is limited, but that grace can be resisted. That's the Amaryaldianism I'm most familiar with.

 

[Allan]

I don't know if all Amyraldians would hold to these distinctions. Some would say regeneration preceeds faith and that the atonement is limited, but that grace can be resisted. That's the Amaryaldianism I'm most familiar with.

I would agree here.
The most concise divisions are known to be of basically 2 categories and later is less held and are not usually considered Amyraldians by first group, like Cals deny Amyraldians are not true Cals but wanna-be's.

1. Unlimited Atonement (stated in various ways but most notably hypothetical)
.... but grace is still irresistible
This group would consider them

2. Unlimited Atonement
...2a. Grace is resistible

Within this group there are other less notable but varied aspects just like with Calvinism but it does not of necessity modify the other basic tenants.

I am more like the second group.. but would be considered a 3.5 or might be considered a 4 if my definition of the effectual call were agreed upon

((FTR- I believe the 'call' is not some special calling only given to a selected group. I believe the call is the same, given to all men in the same way. The distinction is that the call is designed to or for the purpose of bringing in those of faith only (God's elect). This calling is not due to God looking down the corridors of time to see who will believe IF God did it this way, but in that God knowing man would die in his sins, determined to save man by faith that it might be by His grace.. and in determining 'how' He also knew (in that same moment of decision) 'who'. They (people of faith) were His choice, not Him, theirs. Yet this statement does not preclude the fact that we, in time, choose Him to be our God, as He has chosen already to for us to be His people.))

 

[JesusFan]

I would agree here.
The most concise divisions are known to be of basically 2 categories and later is less held and are not usually considered Amyraldians by first group, like Cals deny Amyraldians are not true Cals but wanna-be's.

1. Unlimited Atonement (stated in various ways but most notably hypothetical)
.... but grace is still irresistible
This group would consider them

2. Unlimited Atonement
...2a. Grace is resistible

Within this group there are other less notable but varied aspects just like with Calvinism but it does not of necessity modify the other basic tenants.

I am more like the second group.. but would be considered a 3.5 or might be considered a 4 if my definition of the effectual call were agreed upon

((FTR- I believe the 'call' is not some special calling only given to a selected group. I believe the call is the same, given to all men in the same way. The distinction is that the call is designed to or for the purpose of bringing in those of faith only (God's elect). This calling is not due to God looking down the corridors of time to see who will believe IF God did it this way, but in that God knowing man would die in his sins, determined to save man by faith that it might be by His grace.. and in determining 'how' He also knew (in that same moment of decision) 'who'. They (people of faith) were His choice, not Him, theirs. Yet this statement does not preclude the fact that we, in time, choose Him to be our God, as He has chosen already to for us to be His people.))

So main differences sen between"real calvinist" and those of us in this group would be:
Do see atonement as being unlimited propiation for whole World
may see faith as causing regeneration, instead of always regeneration causing faith?

 

[Allan]

So main differences sen between"real calvinist" and those of us in this group would be:
Do see atonement as being unlimited propiation for whole World
may see faith as causing regeneration, instead of always regeneration causing faith?

One point of clarification. Faith does not 'cause' regeneration. Regeneration is the act of God upon a man. The act of regeneration is salvation. Man's faith does not 'cause' God to do this. God has chosen to do this upon those of faith.

Man does not trade his belief for salvation nor does believing add anything to the man for salvation. Man simply acknowledges what God says is true and cries out for mercy.

 

[JesusFan]

One point of clarification. Faith does not 'cause' regeneration. Regeneration is the act of God upon a man. The act of regeneration is salvation. Man's faith does not 'cause' God to do this. God has chosen to do this upon those of faith.

Man does not trade his belief for salvation nor does believing add anything to the man for salvation. Man simply acknowledges what God says is true and cries out for mercy.

So faith would be the means to 'access' the grace that God provides in order to accomplish bring about salavation/regeneration?