How many here read Calvins Institutes And Luthers Bondage of The Will?

[JesusFan]

If you have, how were they helpful, or not, in shaping your theology?

 

[InTheLight]

I attempted to read Luther's Bondage of the Will but it was a difficult read. He seems to take forever to get to the point. I gave up on it.

 

[JesusFan]

I attempted to read Luther's Bondage of the Will but it was a difficult read. He seems to take forever to get to the point. I gave up on it.

Agree that sometimes he gets vebrose, but well worth the read, as he does a good job setting up one to read the Institutes of Calvin!

 

[kyredneck]

I attempted to read Luther's Bondage of the Will but it was a difficult read. He seems to take forever to get to the point. I gave up on it.

I like Edersheim, but man, he can take 10,000 words sometimes to say what could have been stated in 5. Perhaps that was common style back then.

 

[Skandelon]

If you have, how were they helpful, or not, in shaping your theology?

Yes, I've read both and yes they were both helpful in shaping my theology. I wrote a report in college on Bondage of the Will, but that was a long time ago. Believe it or not, even now, I find much more to agree with than to disagree with in these works.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, I've read both and yes they were both helpful in shaping my theology. I wrote a report in college on Bondage of the Will, but that was a long time ago. Believe it or not, even now, I find much more to agree with than to disagree with in these works.

what is impressive is that even with our high tech computers greek hebrew tools text better understanding culture history etc

No ONE has ever written in present time anything comparable to Calvin, hard pressed to find Luthers equal either!

Just wondering how many of His and calvinism critics have actuallybothered to read his works?

what would you suggest as the Arminian work most comparable to Institutes of Christian religion?

 

[Skandelon]

what is impressive is that even with our high tech computers greek hebrew tools text better understanding culture history etc

No ONE has ever written in present time anything comparable to Calvin, hard pressed to find Luthers equal either!

Just wondering how many of His and calvinism critics have actuallybothered to read his works?

what would you suggest as the Arminian work most comparable to Institutes of Christian religion?

Well, in my experience people tend to be more impressed with language they don't fully grasp (i.e. old english, or older translated texts). It reminds if of this quote:

“Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand” - Cardinal de Retz

Which means that people tend to put more stock in arguments written in complex sentences even if the presumptions and ideas are the same as those of the "commoner." A false teaching, even spoken with intelligent words and complex phraseology, is still just as false. Which is true of both sides of this debate, by the way.

 

[heartofflesh]

I read Calvin's Institutes first and Luther's Bondage of the Will several months later. Institutes was the first systematic theology I had ever read and found it to be tremendously helpful. I don't know that I found Bondage of the Will to be quite as theology shaping as Institutes. I was firmly convinced, Biblically, of man's bondage before I ever approached the work.

 

[Allan]

If you have, how were they helpful, or not, in shaping your theology?

I have, and have them as well in my library.

They are both helpful in various ways.
Historically why they were written (ie. Luthers books was against the opinion of the Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian free-will view, not what is understood today as 'free-will').

They both held to a different understanding of various aspects of their faith as well (like Luther was know for Unlimited Atonement stand, while Calvin was seen to speak more to Limited Atonement - though he wavered on this in his commentaries)

So they give you insight into why others saw things from different perspectives. If one truly studies what they give, as neither make to claim of being inspired so their work is a basis for more careful studies of the scriptures and their works as guides to determine if what they give is biblically correct - as they believe it is (they should cause they are the ones writing about it ). I believe it is due to this we can see both their achievements and faults in their positions. - a gleaning so-to-speak of what is given.

Truth is, most Reformed/Calvinists today would be kicked out of Calvin's congregation, as well would most Lutherans out of Luther's.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Years ago I read Calvins Institutes. It did not convert me to calvinism.

I have not read Luthers Bondage of the Will.

 

[Rippon]

Historically why they were written (ie. Luther;s book was against the opinion of the Pelagian and Semi-Pelagian free-will view, not what is understood today as 'free-will').

Luther's book still applies today. Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism still dominate. The free-will view that he decimated is still held by many in contemporary times.

Truth is, most Reformed/Calvinists today would be kicked out of Calvin's congregation...

I know a Reformed Baptist would,but why would a conservative Presbyterian for instance,be kicked out?

 

[Rippon]

Well, in my experience people tend to be more impressed with language they don't fully grasp (i.e. old english, or older translated texts). It reminds if of this quote:

“Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand” - Cardinal de Retz

Which means that people tend to put more stock in arguments written in complex sentences even if the presumptions and ideas are the same as those of the "commoner." A false teaching, even spoken with intelligent words and complex phraseology, is still just as false. Which is true of both sides of this debate, by the way.

You are confusing. You just said that you have read the "Bondage of the Will" by Luther and Calvin's most famous work. You said you agreed more with those volumes than most would suspect and that they helped shape your theology. Yet you now complain about their complex sentences and so forth.

If you really read Calvin's "Institutes" you would come away impressed at how less difficult he is in comparison with others of his era. He's even easier to read than John Owen of a century later. If anything,those who read Calvin's works would be pleased at how well he speaks. He uses a non-prolixic style. He's clear and to-the-point.

 

[David Lamb]

I attempted to read Luther's Bondage of the Will but it was a difficult read. He seems to take forever to get to the point. I gave up on it.

You may be interested to know that Grace Publications Trust have published Born Slaves, which is a simplified abridgment of Bondage of the Will. It's one of a series Christian Classics, of which you can find details here. If you are in the U.S.A., the books can be ordered at http://www.cvbbs.com/

The series also includes Biblical Christianity which is based on the first three books of Calvin's Institutes.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You are confusing. You just said that you have read the "Bondage of the Will" by Luther and Calvin's most famous work. You said you agreed more with those volumes than most would suspect and that they helped shape your theology. Yet you now complain about their complex sentences and so forth.

If you really read Calvin's "Institutes" you would come away impressed at how less difficult he is in comparison with others of his era. He's even easier to read than John Owen of a century later. If anything,those who read Calvin's works would be pleased at how well he speaks. He uses a non-prolixic style. He's clear and to-the-point.

Yes, totally agree that I was surprised with how easy Calvin was to read. Ive not read Luther.