How many times are we "made alive" in the process of salvation?

[DHK]

Don't think anyone just says "believe" and bam, case closed. Demons "believe" and (apart from a few on the BB?) none are going to heaven.

The Bible uses "shorthand" and "summary terms" that must involve the whole gammut of Bible teaching. "Believe" is one of those summary terms and we must see ALL that is involved with salvation, not just one tiny part.

My salvation involves

• Election in eternity by God, not based on anything I might say/do
• Foreknowing me as His beloved (nothing to do with fore-seeing like some mistakenly try to define foreknowledge as)
• Calling of God effectively on my life
• Union with Christ through:
  ....**Regeneration
  ....**Conversion
  ........***Repentance
  ........***Faith/Believing
  ....**Justification
  ....**Adoption
  ....**Sanctification
  ....**Glorification

So when someone says "I was saved be believing" or "I was saved by calling on Jesus/praying a prayer" or "I was saved listening so a sermon" . . they are just sharing a SMALL PART of the whole "package" that we label as "salvation".

You cannot divorce one part of the above and be saved. If you were not regenerated/born again you are not saved. If you were not justified you are not saved. If you were not elect from before the foundation of the world, you are not saved.

It's a whole package, often summarized in shorthand terms. But all or nothing.

However if I had to understand all of that before I got saved, I still would not be saved today. What I did understand that day many years ago was that I was a sinner. I needed a Savior. Christ took the penalty of my sins. He died in my place. I needed to believe on him. I believed that day and was saved.
Salvation, therefore was by faith.
Christ, by his grace provided it, and all of the above may be true. But who was I that I understood it all???

 

[Dr. Bob]

Fun. You just used another "shorthand" and said "I was saved by faith. That was all I needed".

No. That was your narrow man-centric view (not condemning, just defining) that saw only your small part in the "package" of salvation.

Did you have repentance toward God (not just for this sin or that sin, but for your being a hell-deserving sinner) as well as faith? I would think you did.

You see in the whole package of salvation WE act by repenting and believing. GOD elects, foreknows, calls, unites, regenerates, justifies, adopts, sanctifies, glorifies. But we focus on US and miss the overall pix.

 

[psalms109:31]

I praise God it isn't easy believism or trying to get to heaven apart from Christ.

Faith without deeds is dead faith not putting His word into practice. If you don't you are not listening and learning. Only those who listen and learn come to Jesus.


God will get rid of those who are following the crowd and not drawn by the Father.

 

[glfredrick]

Don't think anyone just says "believe" and bam, case closed. Demons "believe" and (apart from a few on the BB?) none are going to heaven.

The Bible uses "shorthand" and "summary terms" that must involve the whole gammut of Bible teaching. "Believe" is one of those summary terms and we must see ALL that is involved with salvation, not just one tiny part.

My salvation involves

• Election in eternity by God, not based on anything I might say/do
• Foreknowing me as His beloved (nothing to do with fore-seeing like some mistakenly try to define foreknowledge as)
• Calling of God effectively on my life
• Union with Christ through:
  ....**Regeneration
  ....**Conversion
  ........***Repentance
  ........***Faith/Believing
  ....**Justification
  ....**Adoption
  ....**Sanctification
  ....**Glorification

So when someone says "I was saved be believing" or "I was saved by calling on Jesus/praying a prayer" or "I was saved listening so a sermon" . . they are just sharing a SMALL PART of the whole "package" that we label as "salvation".

You cannot divorce one part of the above and be saved. If you were not regenerated/born again you are not saved. If you were not justified you are not saved. If you were not elect from before the foundation of the world, you are not saved.

It's a whole package, often summarized in shorthand terms. But all or nothing.

Well written, and a point I make here on the board often. If one "only" looks to the human action, one might see that they "believed" and "salvation happened." From the Scriptures, however, we realize that there are multiple parts of the process, and each must be fulfilled (by God!) before salvation can happen. Otherwise all that happens is religious zeal, and that is roundly condemned in the same Scriptures that share God's good news.

 

[DHK]

Fun. You just used another "shorthand" and said "I was saved by faith. That was all I needed".

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

No. That was your narrow man-centric view (not condemning, just defining) that saw only your small part in the "package" of salvation.

The object of my faith was Christ. It is not man-centric at all.
He is the author and finisher of my faith.
Consider him who endured such contradiction of sinners against himself.
My faith is in him, the object of my faith. It was He who loved me, an object of His love.

Did you have repentance toward God (not just for this sin or that sin, but for your being a hell-deserving sinner) as well as faith? I would think you did.

Repentance is the flip side of faith in Christ. If I put faith in Christ, I have automatically repented haven't I. Repentance is a change of mind in one's attitude toward God. How is it possible for one not to have a change of mind in their attitude to God if they just trusted him as Lord, when previously they were a rebel toward God??

You see in the whole package of salvation WE act by repenting and believing.

Same thing. You can't have one without the other. They are two sides of the same coin.

GOD elects, foreknows, calls, unites, regenerates, justifies, adopts, sanctifies, glorifies. But we focus on US and miss the overall pix.

Again, does one who just comes to Christ, does he understand all of that in order to be saved? Or even, just after he is saved?

 

[glfredrick]

Note the bolded words in your post compared to the verse you cited (being justified by faith is a passive verb structure indicating that SOMEONE is doing the justification, that someone, by context, is God):

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

The object of my faith was Christ. It is not man-centric at all.
He is the author and finisher of my faith.
Consider him who endured such contradiction of sinners against himself.
My faith is in him, the object of my faith. It was He who loved me, an object of His love.

Repentance is the flip side of faith in Christ. If I put faith in Christ, I have automatically repented haven't I. Repentance is a change of mind in one's attitude toward God. How is it possible for one not to have a change of mind in their attitude to God if they just trusted him as Lord, when previously they were a rebel toward God??

Same thing. You can't have one without the other. They are two sides of the same coin.

Again, does one who just comes to Christ, does he understand all of that in order to be saved? Or even, just after he is saved?

About the "understanding" issue that you are so hung up on, why no... Probably one does not "understand" all the theological ramifications of God being the author and finisher of one's faith and salvation. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Otherwise, you are forced solidly into the Pelagian camp, where human action (as you are stipulating here!) is the key to the salvific process.

 

[DHK]

Note the bolded words in your post compared to the verse you cited (being justified by faith is a passive verb structure indicating that SOMEONE is doing the justification, that someone, by context, is God):



About the "understanding" issue that you are so hung up on, why no... Probably one does not "understand" all the theological ramifications of God being the author and finisher of one's faith and salvation. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Otherwise, you are forced solidly into the Pelagian camp, where human action (as you are stipulating here!) is the key to the salvific process.

Read Psalm 51 and note the first person singular.
Do you know what a testimony is.
In a testimony there are always first person pronouns.
If you can't give a testimony in the first person exalting and praising God, then I feel sorry for you.

 

[psalms109:31]

It depends how you look at it, our perspective. Our we saved because we trusted in Christ or that God said believers are saved. That it is faith with deeds.

I believe the later. We are saved because of His decision

 

[preacher4truth]

Note the bolded words in your post compared to the verse you cited (being justified by faith is a passive verb structure indicating that SOMEONE is doing the justification, that someone, by context, is God):



About the "understanding" issue that you are so hung up on, why no... Probably one does not "understand" all the theological ramifications of God being the author and finisher of one's faith and salvation. But that doesn't change the fact that it happened. Otherwise, you are forced solidly into the Pelagian camp, where human action (as you are stipulating here!) is the key to the salvific process.

One other issue is that DHK believes since repentance is not taught in any NT Epistle (which it is) he believes it not necessary, yet, at the same time, it is (to him) "automatic" at salvation, "just in case." Quite an interesting concept, but I don't believe it is backed up in Scripture.

Repentance is a gift in salvation, and is completely necessary. As a matter of fact, it is where God leads His own, Romans 2:4.

Imagine what's at stake within churches, teaching otherwise. Just get up and preach "believe" as some "metropolitan" churches around here do. Lo and behold, look at your congregation. Now, just try and convince them that true believers experience a changed life, and path. Nope. YOU said all they had to do was believe. Good luck with that.

And the "metropolitan" churches? Well, they're full of unrepentant folks who live and practice sin and with no shame. But hey, THEY'VE believed. That is all it there is to it, correct? I mean, you preached it, and don't you dare preach repentance, instead today it's MY faith, MY belief, MY ability, MY salvation, MY choice and don't you mess with MY salvation.

Yeah. OK.

Sad. And unbiblical.

 

[glfredrick]

Read Psalm 51 and note the first person singular.
Do you know what a testimony is.
In a testimony there are always first person pronouns.
If you can't give a testimony in the first person exalting and praising God, then I feel sorry for you.

I well understand personal testimony.

When God came to save me, I (yes, I) was a confessed atheist, who had formerly been religious, fought God, then finally dismissed the concept of God all together. All of that was precipitated by the loss of our second son during child birth, followed by the inane response of our local pastor, who said that he didn't have a clue why God would do such a thing. I told him to shove his god, his church, and his Bible up his @** *and, yes, i did, and more!). It was in that mindset that God came and revealed Himself to me -- no other person, no church, no prayer (that I know of) just God and myself.

Weird thing, was that I could not even fight Him. Even if I had wanted to, I could not have resisted or fought, for there was nothing to resist, and nothing to fight! He first came with a simple story that intrigued me, but once it was over, it was over. The next time He came with a message about how He (and others) grieve over the loss of a child. He, quite simply, broke my heart and caused me to see that HE IS. It was child's play for God to draw me to Himself. It only took a few minutes, and I was the hardened tough guy that no church worth its salt would confront, lest I burn their place to the ground!

I'm still that same "hard guy" but God has SO worked in my life, that instead of cursing people to death, I work myself to death trying to bring them into the presence of Almighty God so they can be introduced to the King of all kings and Lord of all lords!

That is my testimony, and there was no "choice" involved. It was all God! I was not "seeking." I was not "church shopping." I was not listening to preaching or Christian content. I was not reading Christian material. I was drinking a case of beer a day, shooting stuff that bothered me, picking fights with family and friends, was an addict of several addictions, was worthless in managing my household, had a mouth that would cause hardened sailors to blush, and was, all around, the sort of guy that most people didn't want to associate with.

Praise God for His sovereign grace that saved a "wretch" like I... :godisgood:

 

[DHK]

I well understand personal testimony.

Then you can understand me giving a bit of testimony above without the need of a rebuke for using first person pronouns. My statement was regarding a new believer who has just come to Christ. How can he possibly be expected to know all the theological ramifications of his salvation (as in all that Dr. Bob mentioned), just a day or two after being saved, or even at the time of salvation. When I was saved I was Biblically illiterate having spent 20 years in the RCC. I could quote to you more doctrine in the Latin language than I could Scripture in English.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Peter - Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, "Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

Here "repentance" is the "shorthand" for all that God did. BTW, it includes real repentance, not just "believe" like demons do. To eliminate repentance from salvation or say it just "happens" is the hylsish easy-believism lie of many of the ifbX friends.

Paul - Acts 20:20-21 "And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have showed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

Acts 26:20 But showed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Here both repentance and faith are used as "shorthand" terms.
Paul's final testimony in Gentile salvation (Gentiles didn't know about the Law, etc) had to include what OT Jews understood from childhood - that repentance was a HUGE part of salvation.

 

[TCGreek]

Scripture seems to teach that faith precedes regeneration.

 

[percho]

But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (that is they believe) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.

It is about what God does.

 

[percho]

How many times are we "made alive" in the process of salvation?

Let's look at Paul.

He was alive once and then the law came and he died, then on the road to Damascus he was saved ie born again and being he is not here now I assume he died, and he will be resurrected for in Christ all will be made alive. So let's see, he was born, again made alive and will be made alive again.

Three.

 

[Dr. Bob]

He was alive once and then the law came and he died, then on the road to Damascus he was saved ie born again and being he is not here now I assume he died, and he will be resurrected for in Christ all will be made alive. So let's see, he was born, again made alive and will be made alive again.

Three.

Apples and oranges. Cannot equate physical life with spiritual life (or physical death with spiritual death).

In Adam he and all his progeny "died" spiritually. I was born physically alive but spiritual dead in sin.

I was regened by the holy Spirit and made alive (spiritually) and still hanging in there physically.

One day I will die physically and later be raised/changed physically. But I am spiritually alive and always will be spiritually alive.

So keep the body and spirit separate (which they are) and it is easy.

Physical = born alive, die, raised/changed
Spiritual = born dead, regenerated, end of story. "He that believes on me will NEVER die (spiritually)" Jesus.

 

[glfredrick]

Then you can understand me giving a bit of testimony above without the need of a rebuke for using first person pronouns. My statement was regarding a new believer who has just come to Christ. How can he possibly be expected to know all the theological ramifications of his salvation (as in all that Dr. Bob mentioned), just a day or two after being saved, or even at the time of salvation. When I was saved I was Biblically illiterate having spent 20 years in the RCC. I could quote to you more doctrine in the Latin language than I could Scripture in English.

Way to miss the point...

I was not rebuking you for your testimony, I was rebuking you for being Pelagian in the way you (believe) you were saved.

In every action you shared in your testimony, YOU were the subject of the sentence, as if YOU called down God to be YOUR personal butler or bellhop.

That YOU do not even realize that you are so doing, YOU have issues with both Scripture and with a divinely sovereign God who says that HE is the author and finisher of our salvation.

Timing in the matter doesn't really matter. You now have (I presume) years and years of study under your belt, and have participated in multiple discussions on this particular subject just since I've been a part of this board. Any excuse that you now make reflecting back to when you were yet ignorant (read Paul in Romans...) is null and void. We have already admitted that one may be ignorant at the point of salvation, but that does not change the fact that GOD is the author and finisher of that salvation.

 

[glfredrick]

Scripture seems to teach that faith precedes regeneration.

In the human sense of time, they may be (and probably are!) instantaneous. In the logical order (ordo salutas) that we use to discuss the issue in a theological sense, there may be an order. Misunderstanding the difference between a theological discussion of the issue and the actual effects on the one saved is the leading cause (as I see it) for the later errors in doctrine.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I was not rebuking you for your testimony, I was rebuking you for being Pelagian in the way you (believe) you were saved.

Many new believers' testimonies focus on the "me" and "I" and sound pelagian in their view (that centers around man). Reminds me of the man healed by Jesus and asked what happened. "I was blind, now I see". He was just stating fact.

But others see and know where the focus should be. "Insomuch that the multitude wondered, when they saw the dumb to speak, the maimed to be whole, the lame to walk, and the blind to see: and they glorified the God of Israel."

Every testimony of God's grace should center on just that = GOD and HIS GRACE. My salvation, while the focus of MY experience, is just collateral to the larger picture.

To the praise of the glory of His grace.

 

[JesusFan]

In the human sense of time, they may be (and probably are!) instantaneous. In the logical order (ordo salutas) that we use to discuss the issue in a theological sense, there may be an order. Misunderstanding the difference between a theological discussion of the issue and the actual effects on the one saved is the leading cause (as I see it) for the later errors in doctrine.

Could a problem be that tend to see this as being in "linear" time sequencing, one follows another etc
While to God perspective, its ALL part of Just a single process, salvation of the saint of God?