How much did the Reformation reform?

[Bro. Curtis]

How about 1 Timothy 2:11–12 ?

 

[rsr]

Now what I'm about to say may shock many of you and find you in disbelief or denial of it, but this is what I found. ... Protestant atonement theories are just expansions of Roman Catholic atonement theory, which are neither ancient nor Biblical, and neither is Augustinian soteriology.

So, in basic ideas of salvation, both Roman Catholic and Protestant (including Baptist) views are akin. These are different from Orthodoxy. ...

One big problem I am having in converting to Protestantism, and Baptists, is in this area of soteriology.

Nothing shocking about your assertions.

But if you believe that Protestant doctrine is "neither ancient nor Biblical," why do you want to convert?

And we haven't even come to the sacraments, where Baptists disagree with Orthodoxy and Catholicism vigorously, and with many Protestants.

If you want to become a Baptist, more than likely you will be required to be baptized.Is that OK?

If you want a soteriology more congenial, look at the descendants of the Anabaptists. Or any number of mainline denominations, which have pretty much abandoned Protestant soteriology for a more Orthodox-friendly version. Good luck.

If you want some really different soteriology, you should check out the

 

[Walpole]

My goodness you have no clue. I specifically answered and because you have no reply you claim the nebulous strawman.

Are you ending the game or are you just simply unaware of your continued use straw man fallacies?

His may help...

Straw man fallacy: Straw Man Fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn't endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have thereby undermined the opponent's actual position. If the misrepresentation is on purpose, then the Straw Man Fallacy is caused by lying.


Here is a text book example of a straw man, which happens to be what you wrote ---> "This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it and imagine you are the cause of faith and good works, which is clearly contrary to scripture." - Your words


****** I never stated nor made this argument that man is the cause (source) of faith and good works. (I would not make that argument because it is antithetical to what I believe.)

 

[Particular]

Are you ending the game or are you simply unaware of your continued use straw man fallacies?

His may help...

Straw man fallacy: Straw Man Fallacy whenever you attribute an easily refuted position to your opponent, one that the opponent wouldn't endorse, and then proceed to attack the easily refuted position (the straw man) believing you have thereby undermined the opponent's actual position. If the misrepresentation is on purpose, then the Straw Man Fallacy is caused by lying.


Here is a text book example of a straw man, which happens to be what you wrote ---> "This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it and imagine you are the cause of faith and good works, which is clearly contrary to scripture." - Your words

****** I never argued that man is the cause of faith and good works. (I would not make this argument because this is antithetical to what I believe.) Thus your post was ...wait for it...wait for it...wait for it...


........just another one of your straw man.

No game, but your game of ignore and deflect is very obvious. I shared scripture. I surmised that you are adding works as the means of salvation, based on your claims, and you immediately cry strawman while ignoring the scripture that shows your position is empty of any legitimacy.

 

[Walpole]

I appreciate all the excellent comments, but it still seems to me that Paul and James disagree. In interpreting scripture, I tend to read things literally and first take the literal sense of a passage. I have also observed that different denominations interpret passages literally when it suits their doctrines and explain away the literal rendering when it doesn't. All denominations do this.

I must be missing something. Can you please point out what you think is a disagreement? For example, where does St. Paul state man is justified by faith alone?

 

[Walpole]

No game, but your game of ignore and deflect is very obvious. I shared scripture. I surmised that you are adding works as the means of salvation, based on your claims, and you immediately cry strawman while ignoring the scripture that shows your position is empty of any legitimacy.

It is apparent now that you are completely oblivious to the fact that you continually use straw man fallacies. Please re-read my post. It will help you better participate in these types of discussions by avoiding the continual use of your straw man arguments.

 

[Particular]

It is apparent now that you are completely oblivious to the fact that you continually use straw man fallacies. Please re-read my post. It will help you better participate in these types of discussions by avoiding the continual use of your straw man arguments.

It is apparent now that you deflect and avoid when shown to be wrong. Please address the scripture I provided and stop deflecting.

 

[Particular]

Your conclusion is wrong. Paul lays it out in Ephesians 2:8-10.
By Grace you are saved.
Through faith, that comes not from yourself, but is God's gift
That you will carry out the works God has ordained for you.
James agrees with this when he argues against people who claim to have faith, but no works are evident. Therefore he states that faith, without works is dead, which Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 when he says the unsaved are dead in their trespasses and sins. No dead man can produce faith. God must make them alive and give them faith that, by the nature of the gift, produces good works.

This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it.

 

[Walpole]

Your conclusion is wrong.

How is my conclusion wrong? Here again is my argument:

If you believe that man is justified by faith alone, then a dead faith - that is one that is alone / apart and isolated from any works - is a salvific one. (cf. James 2:26)

It's either by faith alone or not by faith alone. You can't have it both ways.

Paul lays it out in Ephesians 2:8-10.
By Grace you are saved.
Through faith, that comes not from yourself, but is God's gift
That you will carry out the works God has ordained for you.
James agrees with this when he argues against people who claim to have faith, but no works are evident. Therefore he states that faith, without works is dead, which Paul says in Ephesians 2:1 when he says the unsaved are dead in their trespasses and sins. No dead man can produce faith. God must make them alive and give them faith that, by the nature of the gift, produces good works.

This is elementary stuff, yet you seem to stumble over it.

Yes, it really is elementary stuff...


Ephesians 2:8-10 --> “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


St. Paul says we are saved "by grace" through faith. The Apostle states grace is a gift of God and does not have its origin in man. Grace is not (an absolute negative) a work man does, but rather has God as its source and cause.

Notice the Apostle does not mention faith alone. For the only place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it. (James 2:24)

This is Christianity 101...

 

[JonC]

Nothing shocking about your assertions.

But if you believe that Protestant doctrine is "neither ancient nor Biblical," why do you want to convert?

Better music.

 

[ntchristian]

Nothing shocking about your assertions.

But if you believe that Protestant doctrine is "neither ancient nor Biblical," why do you want to convert?

And we haven't even come to the sacraments, where Baptists disagree with Orthodoxy and Catholicism vigorously, and with many Protestants.

If you want to become a Baptist, more than likely you will be required to be baptized.Is that OK?

If you want a soteriology more congenial, look at the descendants of the Anabaptists. Or any number of mainline denominations, which have pretty much abandoned Protestant soteriology for a more Orthodox-friendly version. Good luck.

If you want some really different soteriology, you should check out the

"check out the" ??

I didn't say that I believed Protestant doctrine is neither ancient nor Biblical. I think it is more ancient and Biblical than Catholicism, but I'm saying that in some important areas it did not reform Catholicism.

Yes, I am definitely okay with undergoing believer's baptism.

As for mainline denominations, probably the only one I could go with would be the American Baptists, but there are none where I live. It would have to be a believers' baptism denomination. There is the Disciples of Christ, but I don't know much about them.

Anabaptist descendents I could consider, but I am not really a pacifist, and I don't object to judicial oaths, so I don't know if I would be accepted.

 

[ntchristian]

Better music.

 

[Particular]

How is my conclusion wrong? Here again is my argument:

If you believe that man is justified by faith alone, then a dead faith - that is one that is alone / apart and isolated from any works - is a salvific one. (cf. James 2:26)

It's either by faith alone or not by faith alone. You can't have it both ways.




Yes, it really is elementary stuff...


Ephesians 2:8-10 --> “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


St. Paul says we are saved "by grace" through faith. The Apostle states grace is a gift of God and does not have its origin in man. Grace is not (an absolute negative) a work man does, but rather has God as its source and cause.

Notice the Apostle does not mention faith alone. For the only place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it. (James 2:24)

This is Christianity 101...

Of course I already answered this in showing you how both James and Paul are in agreement so that faith is completely of God alone.
I also provided an excellent comment by John Piper on the issue.
I am amazed how people create theology from one verse in isolation to the rest of scripture. Such behavior is what Satan attempted when he tempted Christ. It should be a red flag. (Yes, now you can whine about strawman because I add commentary. [emoji26])

 

[ntchristian]

Of course I already answered this in showing you how both James and Paul are in agreement so that faith is completely of God alone.
I also provided an excellent comment by John Piper on the issue.
I am amazed how people create theology from one verse in isolation to the rest of scripture. Such behavior is what Satan attempted when he tempted Christ. It should be a red flag. (Yes, now you can whine about strawman because I add commentary. [emoji26])

Your response was to Walpole, but I hope you don't mind my replying. I read the Piper comment, and I agree that it was excellent. However, James does say we are justified by works and not by faith alone. That's exact and clear. Why not take it for what it says and not try to explain it away? It doesn't bother me if James disagrees with Paul. The apostles disagreed with each other more than once.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

but I'm saying that in some important areas it did not reform Catholicism

I don't know of ANY areas, important or otherwise, in-which the RCC was reformed by the efforts of the reformation.

 

[Yeshua1]

How is my conclusion wrong? Here again is my argument:

If you believe that man is justified by faith alone, then a dead faith - that is one that is alone / apart and isolated from any works - is a salvific one. (cf. James 2:26)

It's either by faith alone or not by faith alone. You can't have it both ways.




Yes, it really is elementary stuff...


Ephesians 2:8-10 --> “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.


St. Paul says we are saved "by grace" through faith. The Apostle states grace is a gift of God and does not have its origin in man. Grace is not (an absolute negative) a work man does, but rather has God as its source and cause.

Notice the Apostle does not mention faith alone. For the only place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it. (James 2:24)

This is Christianity 101...

What must I do to be saved, asked the jailor? Paul refutes any water baptism, or any good works required for Justification in his answer!

 

[Particular]

Your response was to Walpole, but I hope you don't mind my replying. I read the Piper comment, and I agree that it was excellent. However, James does say we are justified by works and not by faith alone. That's exact and clear. Why not take it for what it says and not try to explain it away? It doesn't bother me if James disagrees with Paul. The apostles disagreed with each other more than once.

Faith creates good works.
Therefore, we are justified by faith and the proof of that justification is the works that faith produces.
Therefore, James is re-emphasizing and expressing the outward manifestation of what faith is doing.
James is NOT saying that good works justify you. That would be what every religion such as Islam and Buddhism teach. It would be justification by self-righteousness. That is NOT what James is saying.
James is re-emphasizing that true faith creates and acts upon the good works God has ordained for the child of God. Such works, produced by God and for God, are the manifestation of the God given faith that justifies us.
We cannot separate the justification statements into a dual work. It is a single work done by God alone.
Attempting to separate these statements and make one be God's action and the other be man's action in a synergist role role is to completely misunderstand James and Paul.

 

[Walpole]

Of course I already answered this in showing you how both James and Paul are in agreement so that faith is completely of God alone.

Are you sure you are responding to the right person? I do not believe, thus I have not argued, that James and Paul are not in agreement. For nowhere does St. Paul state we are saved by faith alone. Once again, the only place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" are stated is a condemnation of it. (James 2:24)

I also provided an excellent comment by John Piper on the issue.
I am amazed how people create theology from one verse in isolation to the rest of scripture. Such behavior is what Satan attempted when he tempted Christ. It should be a red flag. (Yes, now you can whine about strawman because I add commentary. [emoji26])

Thankfully you didn't use a straw man. (It would only be a straw man if you argued that I create theology from one verse in isolation to the rest of Scripture.)

You are making progress...

 

[Walpole]

What must I do to be saved, asked the jailor? Paul refutes any water baptism, or any good works required for Justification in his answer!

Refutes water baptism? You might want to actually read Acts 16...

Acts 16:30-33---> Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family.

 

[Yeshua1]

Are you sure you are responding to the right person? I do not believe, thus I have not argued, that James and Paul are not in agreement. For nowhere does St. Paul state we are saved by faith alone. Once again, the only place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" are stated is a condemnation of it. (James 2:24)



Thankfully you didn't use a straw man. (It would only be a straw man if you argued that I create theology from one verse in isolation to the rest of Scripture.)

You are making progress...

Paul in Romans to the jailor sure sounded like faith alone!