How much did the Reformation reform?

[Yeshua1]

For those that believe works is required to attain salvation, is there a scale to determine when you have done enough to pass the threshold for becoming a child of God? Once attained, is it good for your lifetime or can you fall below the threshold, losing your salvation? How do you know? If you can lose you salvation due to lack or your effort to keep it, can you regain it through additional effort?

Eph 4:30 KJV - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Does this verse apply to you or are you somehow exempted?

Praise God I am sealed by the Holy Spirit and my spiritual standing with God is not determined by my feelings. It is grounded in fact not emotions.

Paul once felt that human efforts and his works made him merit his place with God, but once he saw the risen Christ, all of that to Him was Dung. that would mean not much help at all....

 

[Particular]

I didn't ask if you could find the words "NOT OF WORKS". I asked if you find the words "FAITH ALONE" in any of St. Paul’s explanatory paragraphs. Are you able to do that?

The words "FAITH ALONE" appear in the Catholic Bible, as a condemnation.

---> James 2:24

Why is the exact phrase important to you?
Moreso, the connection between James and Paul regarding salvation by grace, through faith has been explained. At this point it seems you are being willfully ignorant of what God has declared and instead demand only exact phraseology for something to be true.

 

[ntchristian]

We interpret using the golden rule:
"When the plain sense makes common sense, seek no other sense."

We also use this rule:
"Scripture interprets scripture."

Both rules are used when understanding faith.

The question to ask yourself is this:
Will I interpret sentences in a vacuum, or will all of scripture guide my interpretation of a sentence?

What is your answer to that question, ntchristian?

All of scripture should and will be my guide. Still, in this case I find the statement of James clear and straightforward. I'll think more and study more on it, though.

 

[ntchristian]

When we know there is disagreement, we know that as we understand its meaning, there is disagreement.

But some of the problems stem not from scripture, but our understanding of scripture. If we misunderstand one verse, then see another verse that says something different, the problem could be our understanding of the first verse.

Lets take "faith" is all that is required by God in order for God to save us by putting us spiritually into Christ. But James says it takes something more than "faith alone."

When we see "faith" as used to meet God's requirement to credit that faith as righteousness, what kind of faith is that? Lip-service faith, faith with no root, superficial faith? Nope. When we see "faith" in scripture think of it as "faithful faith" or "faith from which faithfulness flows" or "alive rather than dead faith." Such a "faith" exists within the person, even if they never get a chance to actually be faithful by serving Christ. (Such was the faith of the thief on the cross.) With such a view there is no disagreement between the teachings of Paul and James.

I like what you said. I can see the sense of it.

 

[ntchristian]

These two statements cannot square with each other.

Maybe not, but I am still searching.

 

[Walpole]

Why is the exact phrase important to you?
Moreso, the connection between James and Paul regarding salvation by grace, through faith has been explained. At this point it seems you are being willfully ignorant of what God has declared and instead demand only exact phraseology for something to be true.

The phrase is important because earlier in this thread I stated the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

Several posters, including yourself, then asserted that St. Paul and St. James must be in contradiction to one another based on the presumption that St. Paul taught that man is in fact saved by faith alone. Here are a few examples...

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/#post-2565336

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/#post-2565675

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-2#post-2565710

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-2#post-2565760

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-3#post-2566010


Thus, in order for there to be an actual contradiction, one would need to demonstrate that St. Paul taught man is saved by faith alone. Hence I am still waiting for that verse(s).

(Spoiler alert: The verse(s) will NEVER be posted because St. Paul NEVER taught sola fide. It was an invention of the progenitors of Protestantism.)

 

[Particular]

The phrase is important because earlier in this thread I stated the ONLY place in Scripture where the words "faith alone" appear are a condemnation of it.

Several posters, including yourself, then asserted that St. Paul and St. James must be in contradiction to one another based on the presumption that St. Paul taught that man is in fact saved by faith alone. Here are a few examples...

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/#post-2565336

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/#post-2565675

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-2#post-2565710

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-2#post-2565760

--> www.baptistboard.com/threads/how-much-did-the-reformation-reform.114800/page-3#post-2566010


Thus, in order for there to be an actual contradiction, one would need to demonstrate that St. Paul taught man is saved by faith alone. Hence I am still waiting for that verse(s).

(Spoiler alert: The verse(s) will NEVER be posted because St. Paul NEVER taught sola fide. It was an invention of the progenitors of Protestantism.)

I never declared that Paul and James were in contradiction. Second, why would salvation by faith alone bother you? Why would you want it to be by faith plus works?
Ephesians 2:1-10 lays out the process God uses to save a person. Why would I try to change the process so I could boast in my works?

 

[Walpole]

I never declared that Paul and James were in contradiction.

That's good to read.

Second, why would salvation by faith alone bother you? Why would you want it to be by faith plus works?

Because it is not true, that's why. It's a lie perpetuated as if it is a tenet of Christianity. It would be like me using this verse of St. Paul's to the faithful at Rome...

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" (Romans 8:24)

...to start claiming that St. Paul taught we are saved by HOPE ALONE. That, of course, would not be true.

Ephesians 2:1-10 lays out the process God uses to save a person. Why would I try to change the process so I could boast in my works?

And nowhere in Ephesians 2:1-10 does St. Paul say we are saved by faith alone. In fact in verse 10, he explicitly states God has ordained those in Christ to do good works. Hence to say that those in Christ have faith apart from good works, i.e. faith alone, would be contrary to the very words of St. Paul.

 

[atpollard]

And nowhere in Ephesians 2:1-10 does St. Paul say we are saved by faith alone. In fact in verse 10, he explicitly states God has ordained those in Christ to do good works. Hence to say that those in Christ have faith apart from good works, i.e. faith alone, would be contrary to the very words of St. Paul.

We say what Ephesians says:

[Eph 2:4-5 NIV] 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

• While we were dead in sin,
• God made us alive, (saved)
• Because of God’s great love (not because of our works).

[Eph 2:8-9 NIV] 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God-- 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

• No man has a reason to boast,
• Because our salvation is a gift of God.
• Our faith is a gift of God.
• The grace (unmerited favor) shown us is a gift from God.
• We are NOT SAVED by our works.

[Eph 2:10 NIV] 10 For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

• We are God’s handiwork (it is God who has made a new thing)
• We are created anew in Christ Jesus.
• We now live, in Christ, as a new man to do good works.
• God has prepared in advance (preordained) the specific good works that we are to walk in.

NONE of this applies to those whom God has not made alive, who have not received the gift of ‘salvation by grace through faith’, are not God’s handiwork or in Christ, and do not have good works prepared in advance, by God, to walk in. Those people have what James calls a “dead faith” that cannot save anyone, or a mind as described in Romans 1 that God has given over to every sinful desire.

 

[Particular]

That's good to read.



Because it is not true, that's why. It's a lie perpetuated as if it is a tenet of Christianity. It would be like me using this verse of St. Paul's to the faithful at Rome...

"For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?" (Romans 8:24)

...to start claiming that St. Paul taught we are saved by HOPE ALONE. That, of course, would not be true.




And nowhere in Ephesians 2:1-10 does St. Paul say we are saved by faith alone. In fact in verse 10, he explicitly states God has ordained those in Christ to do good works. Hence to say that those in Christ have faith apart from good works, i.e. faith alone, would be contrary to the very words of St. Paul.

If you assist God in your salvation do you have cause to boast? I say that you do have cause to boast in your effort of assistance.
As for Romans 8:24, you show how you ignore the context to create a false assertion. Read the context and let me know what Paul is saying.

Romans 8:23-25,28-30 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

What we see in Ephesians 2 is this:

Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Finally, no one says that faith does not produce good works. We state that faith causes good works. The effect of faith is good works.
You cannot flip that around. You cannot claim that good works cause faith and faith is an effect of good works. That would be a lie. But, faith does cause the effect of good works. That is truth. That is exactly what both Paul and James are saying.
However, you are claiming that both faith and good works are causes which synchronously create the effect of salvation. That cannot be true. Why? Because the unredeemed person cannot have faith and cannot have works God considers good. In the case of both faith and good works, God must first choose to redeem that person and give them faith, which begets good works. God must...make the person alive with Christ before faith can be given by God's grace.
As atpollard rightly stated, you are attempting to put the cart before the horse. What you are doing is biblically incorrect. You lessen the work of God to glorify the imagined work of man.

 

[Bro. Curtis]

”Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”

 

[JonC]

How much did the Reformation reform? The answer is simple (undeniable to any Baptist)....not enough.

 

[ntchristian]

How much did the Reformation reform? The answer is simple (undeniable to any Baptist)....not enough.

I certainly agree with that. And even the Baptists, at least the Particular-infulenced branch, still follows Augustinian soteriology which is not what the early Christians believed.

 

[Adonia]

How much did the Reformation reform? The answer is simple (undeniable to any Baptist)....not enough.

Which is why there are already thousands of Christian sects out there. If a couple of hundred more were to form, would the "truth" finally be found?

 

[JonC]

Which is why there are already thousands of Christian sects out there. If a couple of hundred more were to form, would the "truth" finally be found?

I think the truth is found in all of them. The Reformation was necessary (the RCC itself had become un-Christian and was never on strong ground to begin with).

 

[Particular]

I certainly agree with that. And even the Baptists, at least the Particular-infulenced branch, still follows Augustinian soteriology which is not what the early Christians believed.

The early Christians were neither Eastern Orthodox nor Roman Catholic.
The Particular Baptists follow the teaching of scripture. If Augustine spoke scripture, he is worth listening to. If others speak scripture, they are worth listening to.
If people speak of human action as the cause which effects God's reaction, those people are not speaking scripture. Therefore it is evident that the EOC and the RCC have ignored scripture and glorified human tradition. They have lifted up human action and minimized God's grace.
Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Wesley Briggman]

How much did the Reformation reform? The answer is simple (undeniable to any Baptist)....not enough.

I understand the purpose of the Protestant Reformation was to address and bring about changes in the RCC. That being the case, it was a total failure.

 

[JonC]

I understand the purpose of the Protestant Reformation was to address and bring about changes in the RCC. That being the case, it was a total failure.

I'd argue that the resulting theology was too much an amalgamation of RCC doctrine and Scripture. Rather than trying to reform the RCC they should have looked more to Scripture than they did (not to reform but to build).

 

[utilyan]

I can find the words “NOT OF WORKS” repeated over and over in Scripture (but they seem to not appear in the Catholic Bible, thus your placing the cart before the horse).

No kidding. Your Strawman is God saved under motivation of a person's MERIT. According to PAUL he was saved for being ignorant, not because he had faith or worked.

WHY God saves anyone = What you have to do. Very big brain there.....I bet your a Calvinist.


20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Who is the foolish fellow? HINT: its not the guy who thinks faith without works is useless.

Give us ONE example of someone who says FAITH without works is USEFUL.

NAME ONE PERSON. I CAN NAME MILLIONS.

You won't find him. Because he is hiding behind the mirror.


James 2

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Faith to Body. Works to spirit.

Body without spirit = dead

Faith without work = dead.


If it all hinges on the BODY = FAITH. why don't you pile up all your BODIES without SPIRIT. in front your church and lets what all that faith does.

It useless and worthless. You can have thousands of people measuring their faith with each other pertaining to thousands of different religions. Men with faith in might as well be demons and devils. Evil people that they call GOD and they do it with great faith.

Scripture says FAITH is not the factor between right and wrong. It tells us plainly in 1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



You guys have the EASIEST way to prove your position true. It is a NO BRAINER. Only and IDIOT cannot compute this.

Show us the guy who is saved who HATES GOD and HATES HIS NEIGHBOR.

Maybe you personally HATED GOD and Neighbor when you were saved. SAY SO and you will have PROVEN without a DOUBT that GOOD WORKS are not required.

 

[ntchristian]

I think the truth is found in all of them. The Reformation was necessary (the RCC itself had become un-Christian and was never on strong ground to begin with).

I have to agree mostly with that.