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How much did the Reformation reform?

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ntchristian

Active Member
Particular said:
The early Christians were neither Eastern Orthodox nor Roman Catholic.
The Particular Baptists follow the teaching of scripture. If Augustine spoke scripture, he is worth listening to. If others speak scripture, they are worth listening to.
If people speak of human action as the cause which effects God's reaction, those people are not speaking scripture. Therefore it is evident that the EOC and the RCC have ignored scripture and glorified human tradition. They have lifted up human action and minimized God's grace.
Let God be true and every man a liar.
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There is no Calvinism in the scriptures or the early church.
 
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ntchristian

Active Member
JonC said:
I'd argue that the resulting theology was too much an amalgamation of RCC doctrine and Scripture. Rather than trying to reform the RCC they should have looked more to Scripture than they did (not to reform but to build).
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That's my position, too.
 
Adonia

Adonia

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Particular said:
The early Christians were neither Eastern Orthodox nor Roman Catholic.
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They were Catholic to the core. There was a forming institutional church with a hierarchical structure. No one was allowed to "go their own way", to decide things for themselves based on their own interpretation of what scriptures were then available to them. They also had a set liturgical form of worship, with the altar of sacrifice as the focus of worship, not the pulpit.
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
ntchristian said:
There is no Calvinism in the scriptures or the early church.
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No kidding. Calvin is just like you, me, the pope, the bishop of Moscow, etc...a person who read scripture and made observation. What doesn't change is scripture. This is why we all go to scripture and make our argument from scripture.
Let me ask you. When was the last time I quoted John Calvin? If John Calvin never lived, would the teachings of God choosing, electing and predestinating still be found in scripture? Yes.
Would salvation by infant baptism be found in scripture? No.
When we observe scripture we can then discuss what God means. When we cling to human commentary (catechism) above scripture we cling to secondary writings above primary source writings.
So let's stick to scripture. If others agree with our biblical position that's worth noting. If we hold a view no one has held, that should be a red flag of warning. Calvin made biblical observations of scripture regarding salvation that I also make. Calvin also made some observations that I do not make regarding prophesy. This is just common sense. We wrestle with scripture and seek to know the mind and the will of God. Hopefully most of us, though we disagree on scripture exegesis, are seeking to know the mind and the will of God.
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
Adonia said:
They were Catholic to the core. There was a forming institutional church with a hierarchical structure. No one was allowed to "go their own way", to decide things for themselves based on their own interpretation of what scriptures were then available to them. They also had a set liturgical form of worship, with the altar of sacrifice as the focus of worship, not the pulpit.
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This is just patently biased and false on your part. Where do we see an altar of sacrifice in Acts? Do we see Peter knocking on a house church door to go focus on an altar of sacrifice constructed in the back yard?
We read from Paul that there were a variety of songs being sung and being created.

Ephesians 5:17-21 Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the will of the Lord is. And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

People weren't forced into one shoe size. Paul commends people for questioning his teaching and demanding scripture for verification.

Acts 17:10-12 The brothers immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived they went into the Jewish synagogue. Now these Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica; they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so. Many of them therefore believed, with not a few Greek women of high standing as well as men.

As for the term catholic, if you are using it as meaning universal, then we agree that God has one means by which we are saved. That one means is universally true. It is catholic.
If you are saying that Rome teaches universal truth...you speak a bold faced lie that is proven false by scripture and by history.
 
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ntchristian

Active Member
Particular said:
No kidding. Calvin is just like you, me, the pope, the bishop of Moscow, etc...a person who read scripture and made observation. What doesn't change is scripture. This is why we all go to scripture and make our argument from scripture.
Let me ask you. When was the last time I quoted John Calvin? If John Calvin never lived, would the teachings of God choosing, electing and predestinating still be found in scripture? Yes.
Would salvation by infant baptism be found in scripture? No.
When we observe scripture we can then discuss what God means. When we cling to human commentary (catechism) above scripture we cling to secondary writings above primary source writings.
So let's stick to scripture. If others agree with our biblical position that's worth noting. If we hold a view no one has held, that should be a red flag of warning. Calvin made biblical observations of scripture regarding salvation that I also make. Calvin also made some observations that I do not make regarding prophesy. This is just common sense. We wrestle with scripture and seek to know the mind and the will of God. Hopefully most of us, though we disagree on scripture exegesis, are seeking to know the mind and the will of God.
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Well, I disagree with Calvin's teachings, but your comments in this post are good.
 
Particular

Particular

Well-Known Member
utilyan said:
No kidding. Your Strawman is God saved under motivation of a person's MERIT. According to PAUL he was saved for being ignorant, not because he had faith or worked.

WHY God saves anyone = What you have to do. Very big brain there.....I bet your a Calvinist.


20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

Who is the foolish fellow? HINT: its not the guy who thinks faith without works is useless.

Give us ONE example of someone who says FAITH without works is USEFUL.

NAME ONE PERSON. I CAN NAME MILLIONS.

You won't find him. Because he is hiding behind the mirror.


James 2

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Faith to Body. Works to spirit.

Body without spirit = dead

Faith without work = dead.


If it all hinges on the BODY = FAITH. why don't you pile up all your BODIES without SPIRIT. in front your church and lets what all that faith does.

It useless and worthless. You can have thousands of people measuring their faith with each other pertaining to thousands of different religions. Men with faith in might as well be demons and devils. Evil people that they call GOD and they do it with great faith.

Scripture says FAITH is not the factor between right and wrong. It tells us plainly in 1 Corinthians 13

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



You guys have the EASIEST way to prove your position true. It is a NO BRAINER. Only and IDIOT cannot compute this.

Show us the guy who is saved who HATES GOD and HATES HIS NEIGHBOR.

Maybe you personally HATED GOD and Neighbor when you were saved. SAY SO and you will have PROVEN without a DOUBT that GOOD WORKS are not required.
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Hmm...you seem to be arguing with a phantom I your own mind, utilyan.
 
atpollard

atpollard

Well-Known Member
utilyan said:
Show us the guy who is saved who HATES GOD and HATES HIS NEIGHBOR.

Maybe you personally HATED GOD and Neighbor when you were saved. SAY SO and you will have PROVEN without a DOUBT that GOOD WORKS are not required.
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"So."
There, I said it.
(I bet you are still not going to believe it.)
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
ntchristian said:
I certainly agree with that. And even the Baptists, at least the Particular-infulenced branch, still follows Augustinian soteriology which is not what the early Christians believed.
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Jesus and the Apostles all taught what would be codified later on as being Cavinistic theology!
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
JonC said:
How much did the Reformation reform? The answer is simple (undeniable to any Baptist)....not enough.
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They restored back the true Gospel, and from my Baptist perspective, did not get away from roman view on sacraments and eschatology enough!
 
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