How much did the Reformation reform?

[Yeshua1]

The scriptures are from the apostolic age.

Yes, first century, and they teach Calvinism....

 

[utilyan]

The problem comes from the rebellion in disobeying the Method Jesus stated to correct matters.

Matthew 18

15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

Reformation ultimately says Jesus Christ cannot be trusted and what Jesus stated to do is useless. Instead its my way or the highway. You got thousands of splinters all rebelling against those who introduced Christianity to them.

Like Jehovah witness, They were "Bible Students", They were Millerites, They were Baptist, They were Anglicans, They were Catholic.

Everytime there is a disagreement instead of trusting how Jesus says to take care of it, cut and run, Divide and splinter. Be factitious.

Titus 3

9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. 10Reject a factious man after a first and second warning, 11knowing that such a man is perverted and is sinning, being self-condemned.

 

[utilyan]

Yes, first century, and they teach Calvinism....

Yes Calvinist earliest is in the bible.

Calvinism was taught since the Devil said God preordained them to be LIKE GOD, elect and the only one's who KNOW Good and Evil.

Genesis 3

4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Genesis 3

12The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”


Even BLAME GOD for it is clearly taught.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yes Calvinist earliest is in the bible.

Calvinism was taught since the Devil said God preordained them to be LIKE GOD, elect and the only one's who KNOW Good and Evil.

Genesis 3

4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die! 5“For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

Genesis 3

12The man said, “The woman whom You gave to be with me, she gave me from the tree, and I ate.”


Even BLAME GOD for it is clearly taught.

Wow, creative, but dead wrong!

 

[Particular]

I have 1.2 billion to confirm YOU are the nut. Even among protestants.

1.2 dying in their sins?

Your claim is utterly bogus and prideful. Wide is the pathway that leads to destruction.

 

[Adonia]

This is just patently biased and false on your part. Where do we see an altar of sacrifice in Acts?

Sacrifice was the whole reason Jesus came and you can bet your bottom dollar that the early faithful Christians knew it because St. Paul preached it.
1 Cor 10: 14 Therefore, my dear friends flee from idolatry 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body for we all share the one loaf.

And 1 Cor 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

There's your altar!

People weren't forced into one shoe size. Paul commends people for questioning his teaching and demanding scripture for verification.

Yes, the teaching from the central authority in the Church. They were not allowed to go their own way or to decide things for themselves. As it says in Acts 16 v 4: "As they travelled from city to city, they handed on to the people for observance the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem".

If you are saying that Rome teaches universal truth...you speak a bold faced lie that is proven false by scripture and by history.

I speak the truth! There was but one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church which was led by the head bishop who was based in Rome as the central authority. The Early Fathers of the Church were Catholics and they believed and taught the Seven Sacraments, including the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist and the succession of one Bishop to another on down direct from the Apostles in the perfect reflection of the Holy Scriptures.

There was no Baptist Church until Mr. John Smyth came along in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. Sorry, but the historical record sustains my claim, not yours.

 

[Particular]

Sacrifice was the whole reason Jesus came and you can bet your bottom dollar that the early faithful Christians knew it because St. Paul preached it.
1 Cor 10: 14 Therefore, my dear friends flee from idolatry 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body for we all share the one loaf.

And 1 Cor 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

There's your altar!



Yes, the teaching from the central authority in the Church. They were not allowed to go their own way or to decide things for themselves. As it says in Acts 16 v 4: "As they travelled from city to city, they handed on to the people for observance the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem".



I speak the truth! There was but one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church which was led by the head bishop who was based in Rome as the central authority. The Early Fathers of the Church were Catholics and they believed and taught the Seven Sacraments, including the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist and the succession of one Bishop to another on down direct from the Apostles in the perfect reflection of the Holy Scriptures.

There was no Baptist Church until Mr. John Smyth came along in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. Sorry, but the historical record sustains my claim, not yours.

You have drank the Kool-aid from Rome, Adonia.
You made no connection to an altar.
Each of the churches had their own elders who directed their church. It wasn't until the Roman government took over the Roman Church that Rome destroyed all other competing churches by force or coercion. Separation of Church and State would have been best, but Rome saw religion as their means of controlling the masses. The blood of many Christian martyrs are on the hands of the Church at Rome. I encourage you to flee Jezebel.

 

[Walpole]

You have drank the Kool-aid from Rome, Adonia.
You made no connection to an altar.
Each of the churches had their own elders who directed their church. It wasn't until the Roman government took over the Roman Church that Rome destroyed all other competing churches by force or coercion. Separation of Church and State would have been best, but Rome saw religion as their means of controlling the masses. The blood of many Christian martyrs are on the hands of the Church at Rome. I encourage you to flee Jezebel.

Hebrews clearly says Christians worship God at the altar:

"We have an altar of our own, and it is not those who carry out the worship of the tabernacle that are qualified to eat its sacrifices. When the high priest takes the blood of beasts with him into the sanctuary, as an offering for sin, the bodies of those beasts have to be burned, away from the camp; and thus it was that Jesus, when he would sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered beyond the city gate. Let us, too, go out to him away from the camp, bearing the ignominy he bore; we have an everlasting city, but not here; our goal is the city that is one day to be. It is through him, then, that we must offer to God a continual sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips that give thanks to his name." (Heb 13:10-15)

The word "altar" used in Hebrews is thusiasterion, which is a compound word of two Greek words meaning "fixed place of sacrifice."

The reason you don't have an altar is because you don't have the Eucharist.


As a side note, you mention Christian martyrs and the Church of Rome. The churches of Rome, like most early churches throughout the early Christian world, are filled with altars constructed over the saints and martyrs of the faith. The commemoration of the saints and martyrs is recalled in the liturgies of the earliest Church.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." (Revelation 6:9)

 

[Particular]

Hebrews clearly says Christians worship God at the altar:

"We have an altar of our own, and it is not those who carry out the worship of the tabernacle that are qualified to eat its sacrifices. When the high priest takes the blood of beasts with him into the sanctuary, as an offering for sin, the bodies of those beasts have to be burned, away from the camp; and thus it was that Jesus, when he would sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered beyond the city gate. Let us, too, go out to him away from the camp, bearing the ignominy he bore; we have an everlasting city, but not here; our goal is the city that is one day to be. It is through him, then, that we must offer to God a continual sacrifice of praise, the tribute of lips that give thanks to his name." (Heb 13:10-15)

The word "altar" used in Hebrews is thusiasterion, which is a compound word of two Greek words meaning "fixed place of sacrifice."

The reason you don't have an altar is because you don't have the Eucharist.


As a side note, you mention Christian martyrs and the Church of Rome. The churches of Rome, like most early churches throughout the early Christian world, are filled with altars constructed over the saints and martyrs of the faith. The commemoration of the saints and martyrs is recalled in the liturgies of the earliest Church.

"And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held." (Revelation 6:9)

Again, you have not established that a church had a sacrificial altar. Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians who still had the Temple at Jerusalem. The author uses imagery. He is not being literal.

Even a Roman Catholic Church doesn't have an actual altar. It's just a relic called an altar.

 

[Walpole]

Again, you have not established that a church had a sacrificial altar. Hebrews is written to Jewish Christians who still had the Temple at Jerusalem. The author uses imagery. He is not being literal.

Even a Roman Catholic Church doesn't have an actual altar. It's just a relic called an altar.

That upon which the Eucharistic sacrifice occurs is an altar. The reason you don't have an altar is because you don't have the Eucharsitic sacrifice, which is the New Covenant; the fulfillment of the Old.

ALL churches in antiquity had altars because the central act of worship for the Christian is the Eucharistic sacrifice, where man has communion with God, who is present amongst us.

This is Christianity 101.

ETA: Catholic altars usually have a cavity (or stone) containing a relic. (cf. Rev 6:9)

 

[Walpole]

Protestants live in a fantasy world. Christianity of antiquity is demonstrably Catholic. We can provide the names of Catholic bishops, writings, Councils, archaeological sites, saints, martyrs, liturgical prayers, Scriptures, psalters, tombs, epitaphs, art, etc. from each century, beginning with the first. The same cannot be said for Evangelicals.

Finding Protestantism in antiquity is like finding the Sasquatch, Loch Ness Monster, or South Georgia Snipe.

 

[Particular]

That upon which the Eucharistic sacrifice occurs is an altar. The reason you don't have an altar is because you don't have the Eucharsitic sacrifice, which is the New Covenant; the fulfillment of the Old.

ALL churches in antiquity had altars because the central act of worship for the Christian is the Eucharistic sacrifice, where man has communion with God, who is present amongst us.

This is Christianity 101.

ETA: Catholic altars usually have a cavity (or stone) containing a relic. (cf. Rev 6:9)

There is no Eucharist sacrifice. Christ died once and for all. You keep throwing Jesus back onto the cross even though he said "it is finished."

Once again you show the paganism of the Church of Rome.

None of the early churches had altars. They met in homes, not in cathedrals.

God meets with us where we are. No altar needed.

 

[JonC]

Six hour warning - sometime after 4am EST thread will be closed.

 

[ntchristian]

Yes, first century, and they teach Calvinism....

That is a combination of funny and ridiculous.

 

[ntchristian]

Sacrifice was the whole reason Jesus came and you can bet your bottom dollar that the early faithful Christians knew it because St. Paul preached it.
1 Cor 10: 14 Therefore, my dear friends flee from idolatry 15 I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ 17 Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body for we all share the one loaf.

And 1 Cor 11: 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

There's your altar!



Yes, the teaching from the central authority in the Church. They were not allowed to go their own way or to decide things for themselves. As it says in Acts 16 v 4: "As they travelled from city to city, they handed on to the people for observance the decisions reached by the apostles and presbyters in Jerusalem".



I speak the truth! There was but one Universal (Catholic) Christian Church which was led by the head bishop who was based in Rome as the central authority. The Early Fathers of the Church were Catholics and they believed and taught the Seven Sacraments, including the "Real Presence" of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist and the succession of one Bishop to another on down direct from the Apostles in the perfect reflection of the Holy Scriptures.

There was no Baptist Church until Mr. John Smyth came along in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. Sorry, but the historical record sustains my claim, not yours.

You are reading back into earliest Christianity and the NT, later developments. I was Orthodox, and yet now I can say what I just said because I studied and found the truth. A NT bishop is not a Catholic bishop in a hierarchy of a threefold ministry but simply the pastor of a local church. Monepiscopacy was non-existent. A NT bishop or overseer was a presbyter or pastor, as all these terms were synonymous. There goes the Catholic doctrine of bishops and apostolic succession, dismantled by the NT itself. This is one reason I left Orthodoxy; it is an ancient church, true enough, but not the NT church I began searching for. The Baptists are much closer to the NT in ecclesiology than Rome ever was or will be, or Orthodoxy, either, for that matter. I still hold my former church in high esteem for remaining true to early church teachings on the atonement, but in other areas they don't go back far enough. And Rome has even more so perverted NT doctrine and practices, as well as ecclesiology. When I left orthodoxy, I never faced toward Rome for an instant, as I wanted to get closer to NT Christianity and not further away from it.

 

[atpollard]

You hate God and neighbor, and you are saved. I could believe that you believe that.

Why do you hate God?

"Maybe you personally HATED GOD and Neighbor when you were saved."

Your statement was in the past tense ... "HATED".
I do not hate God in the present.

 

[Particular]

In closing, the Reformation pointed people back toward God and scripture while correctly placing tradition under the authority of scripture.
The Reformation failed to remove the synergism whereby man tries to place himself as controller of his life and God becomes the genie who grants his wisely chosen wishes. God is therefore is not yet given full glory by many churches because free-will is esteemed over God's Sovereign decree.

 

[Walter]

You are reading back into earliest Christianity and the NT, later developments. I was Orthodox, and yet now I can say what I just said because I studied and found the truth. A NT bishop is not a Catholic bishop in a hierarchy of a threefold ministry but simply the pastor of a local church. Monepiscopacy was non-existent. A NT bishop or overseer was a presbyter or pastor, as all these terms were synonymous. There goes the Catholic doctrine of bishops and apostolic succession, dismantled by the NT itself. This is one reason I left Orthodoxy; it is an ancient church, true enough, but not the NT church I began searching for. The Baptists are much closer to the NT in ecclesiology than Rome ever was or will be, or Orthodoxy, either, for that matter. I still hold my former church in high esteem for remaining true to early church teachings on the atonement, but in other areas they don't go back far enough. And Rome has even more so perverted NT doctrine and practices, as well as ecclesiology. When I left orthodoxy, I never faced toward Rome for an instant, as I wanted to get closer to NT Christianity and not further away from it.

And I was a Baptist who discovered that the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are the closest to what NT Church looked like. Read Early Church history and say what you posted here. Just not reality. The Early Church grew and EVOLVED into a Church where the 3 fold ministry was found outside of each local church.The reason Baptist churches are so divided and split are because of this.

 

[Walter]

You are reading back into earliest Christianity and the NT, later developments. I was Orthodox, and yet now I can say what I just said because I studied and found the truth. A NT bishop is not a Catholic bishop in a hierarchy of a threefold ministry but simply the pastor of a local church. Monepiscopacy was non-existent. A NT bishop or overseer was a presbyter or pastor, as all these terms were synonymous. There goes the Catholic doctrine of bishops and apostolic succession, dismantled by the NT itself. This is one reason I left Orthodoxy; it is an ancient church, true enough, but not the NT church I began searching for. The Baptists are much closer to the NT in ecclesiology than Rome ever was or will be, or Orthodoxy, either, for that matter. I still hold my former church in high esteem for remaining true to early church teachings on the atonement, but in other areas they don't go back far enough. And Rome has even more so perverted NT doctrine and practices, as well as ecclesiology. When I left orthodoxy, I never faced toward Rome for an instant, as I wanted to get closer to NT Christianity and not further away from it.

Btw, do you believe like 'Particular' Baptists and most of the Baptists posting on this forum that myself and other Catholics and Orthodox Christians are 'lost in their sins and Hell bound'? That is EXACTLY what he said he believes! Remember, I used to believe just like you do now. He would say I was NEVER actually saved to begin with because he can't believe I lost my salvation. His theology condemns that position. However, he will say if I ever REALLY knew Jesus Christ to begin with I 'will come out of her'. Btw, I have been a Catholic Christian for many years now.

 

[Walter]

That is a combination of funny and ridiculous.

Yeah, but this chucklehead is held in high regard on this board. He REALLY believes this nonsense. He thinks if he ends every single post with an exclamation point he is being convincing.