<<<How nonsensical can it get?>>>

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Confession of Faith
I believe in God, the Almighty, Father, Creator
of heavens and earth,
and in Jesus Christ his only-begotten Son, our Lord,
conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary,
who under Pontius Pilate suffered and was crucified,
who descended into hell, died and was buried
and on the third day according to the Scriptures rose
from the dead,
who ascended to heaven and sits on the right hand of
the power of God,
hence He shall come to judge the living and the dead,
I believe in the Holy Spirit;
I believe one Christian Church of the elect,
the holy communion of believers,
the forgiveness of sin, the everlasting life and the resurrection,
in the glorified body of flesh.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Angels at the tomb:

Yes, where more than one woman—Mary Magdalene included—visited the tomb and actually went into the tomb there were angels or was an angel:
Luke 24—two angels outside surprising the women as they came out of the tomb; and Mark 16—one angel “at the right”—carefully observed inside “sitting” on an already familiar place.

And where Mary by herself having “had had stood after / stayed behind”, “at the tomb and stooped over and peeped inside and spoke to them. There were two angels inside the tomb sitting where the body was laid down.

Where at last the women came to the tomb while Mary was no longer among them because the Lord already had appeared to her early on the First Day of the week, "the angel explained to them and told that Jesus was resurrected, and they for joy ran to tell his disciples, Jesus met them, while the angel must have felt great for the honour he received to be the messenger of Glad Tidings.

But where it was Mary on her own who “comes UNTO the tomb” viz. “is on her way to the tomb, sees the stone cast away, runs back”, no angels are seen or mentioned.

Also where Peter and John ran to the tomb, and after several hours Peter again hastened to the tomb, no angels are mentioned because no angels were there.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Condensed:

Visits at the tomb “on the First Day”:-

1) “Mary sees the stone removed”, “while being early darkness still”, dusk. Then Peter and John go to the tomb to see what Mary has told them. (Jn20:1-10)
2) “Earliest morning- darkness”, just after midnight, “the two women” (variant – the two Marys), “and certain others with them”, for the first time, “came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices they had prepared”. (Lk24:1) “They returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.” (“Then Peter stood up and ran to the tomb; and bending low over, he saw the linen clothes. He went back, wandering by himself about that what had happened.” (Lk24:9-12) Cf. John's account in 20:1-10. I can't say Luke talks of another visit by Peter, but it seems true because Luke doesn't mention John.)
3) These women to make sure, a second time came to the tomb “very early before sunrise”. (Mk16:2)
4) Mary from after the others had fled in fear (Mk16:8)
“had had stood without at the grave” (Jn20:11). At the time a gardener should begin work, about sunrise, Jesus “early … first appeared to Mary”. (Mk16:9)
5) Soon after – after they a third time have visited the tomb and “the angel explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection – Jesus appears to the other women “as they went to tell his disciples”. (Mt28:5, 9)
Mary went to the tomb, three times, Jn20:1, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mk16:9 when she “had remained standing behind” until, Jn20:11, Jesus appeared to her, “first”, Mk16:9, and alone, “at the grave”, Jn20:16.
The other women also went to the tomb, three times, Lk24:1, Mk16:2, and Mt28:5 when “the angel explained” to them what had happened during the Resurrection, and Jesus, as “they went to tell his disciples”, appeared to them. (Mt28:5, 9)
The answer to the ‘Easter enigma’ (John Wenham) is simple: Each Gospel contributed to the whole with one of several sources; each added a personal part that, put together, will bring the whole story of the Resurrection into proper perspective.
Tradition – that is, the Sunday-resurrection approach – makes of these several stories of several visits, the one and simultaneous occasion of Jesus’ resurrection. Contradictions, discrepancies and total confusion are the inevitable result! It was bad enough that this ‘solution’ to a self-created ‘riddle’ was ever offered just to protect Sunday’s presumed status of being the day of the Resurrection. It became a comedy of tragic proportions when Sunday-protagonists began to defend their presumptuousness through unlawful improvements on the Scriptures.
JOHN 20:1,2 sets all visits to the tomb in motion:
“The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early of dark yet [dusk / evening--'proh-i skotias eti ousehs'], unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.”

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If this Book be not infallible, where shall we find infallibility? We have given up the Pope, for he has blundered often and terribly; but we shall not set up instead of him a horde of little popelings fresh from college. C. H. Spurgeon
. . . nor one frenzied fribble frothing fossil of a freak . . . or freak from a fossil . . . whichever whatever . . .

 

[vooks]

2) “Earliest morning- darkness”, just after midnight, “the two women” (variant – the two Marys), “and certain others with them”, for the first time, “came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices they had prepared”. (Lk24:1) “They returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.” (“Then Peter stood up and ran to the tomb; and bending low over, he saw the linen clothes. He went back, wandering by himself about that what had happened.” (Lk24:9-12) Cf. John's account in 20:1-10. I can't say Luke talks of another visit by Peter, but it seems true because Luke doesn't mention John.)

A simple question,
The women, your 'two Marys'. Did they encounter angels on this trip?
A. YES
B. NO
C. I DON'T KNOW

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If Vooks aka Josheb isn’t Ritenbaugh my name isn’t Sterk Gert!

 

[vooks]

Weed will make you shake dreadlocks on your bald head

2) “Earliest morning- darkness”, just after midnight, “the two women” (variant – the two Marys), “and certain others with them”, for the first time, “came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices they had prepared”.

The question;
The women, your 'two Marys'. Did they encounter angels on this trip?
A. YES
B. NO
C. I DON'T KNOW

 

[Walter]

What are all the >>>>>><<<<<<< about?

They serve the same purpose as the 'tin-foil hat' for so many others!! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Weed will make you shake dreadlocks on your bald head


The question;
The women, your 'two Marys'. Did they encounter angels on this trip?
A. YES
B. NO
C. I DON'T KNOW

Luke 24:1 "they came" ['ehlthon'] 'unto the tomb' KJV but 'upon the tomb' Marshall [epi to mnehma'].
I prefer "AT the tomb".

"and entering" ['eiselthousai'] "they found not the body" ['ouch heuron to sohma']

<<<Did they encounter angels on this trip?>>>

No. BUT:
"as they were much perplexed thereabout ---AFTER THAT THEY HAD ARRIVED AND FOUND NO BODY ---"behold suddenly, TWO ANGELS stood-over-by them" ['andres duo epestehsan autais'] : as they exited the tomb for "they were bending their faces to the earth" as they exited and outside the two angels confronted them.

Therefore:
Did they encounter angels or did angels encounter them AFTER <<this trip>> TO the tomb?

Yes.


AFTER the LAST visit at the tomb according to Matthew 28, and these same women minus Mary Magdalene were on their way back from the tomb and on their way to the city to tell the disciples what “the angel EXPLAIN(ED) to them, Jesus met them”.

 

[vooks]

Luke 24:1 "they came" ['ehlthon'] 'unto the tomb' KJV but 'upon the tomb' Marshall [epi to mnehma'].
I prefer "AT the tomb".

"and entering" ['eiselthousai'] "they found not the body" ['ouch heuron to sohma']

<<<Did they encounter angels on this trip?>>>

No. BUT:
"as they were much perplexed thereabout ---AFTER THAT THEY HAD ARRIVED AND FOUND NO BODY ---"behold suddenly, TWO ANGELS stood-over-by them" ['andres duo epestehsan autais'] : as they exited the tomb for "they were bending their faces to the earth" as they exited and outside the two angels confronted them.

Therefore:
Did they encounter angels or did angels encounter them AFTER <<this trip>> TO the tomb?

Yes.

Gerhard,
A trip means they leave their houses, head for the tomb, get to the tomb, and return back. Call it a ROUND trip.

Here is a trip illustrated;
HOME~~~~~~>TOMB~~~~~>HOME

So once again, did the women at ANY point either on their way to the tomb, at the tomb or from the tomb meet any angel(s)?


Remember we are on your point #2, your 'just after midnight' trip.
Meeting an angel or angels at ANY point would warrant the answer YES while meeting no angel nowhere demands a NO. So it can't be YES and NO at the same time. Even a brain dead Neanderthal mongoloid and his pet Orangutan would know that

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard,
A trip means they leave their houses, head for the tomb, get to the tomb, and return back. Call it a ROUND trip.

Here is a trip illustrated;
HOME~~~~~~>TOMB~~~~~>HOME

So once again, did the women at ANY point either on their way to the tomb, at the tomb or from the tomb meet any angel(s)?


Remember we are on your point #2.
It can't be YES and NO. Even a brain dead Neanderthal mongoloid and his pet Orangutan would know that

I have answered your question fully. What one-dimensional thinking is it which claims <<<It can't be YES and NO>>>!

If <<<Here is a trip illustrated;
HOME~~~~~~>TOMB~~~~~>HOME>>>, the answer in this case must be and, in this case, is, No, and, Yes, like this:

Here is THIS Luke 24 <trip>, illustrated . . .
Angel or angels from HOME~~~~~~>TOMB? : Answer: No;
Angel or angels AT TOMB? : Answer: Yes, two angels;
Angel or angels from TOMB~~~~~>HOME? : Answer: No.

 

[vooks]

Angel or angels AT TOMB? : Answer: Yes, two angels;

Thank you Gerhard
Learn to answer the questions you are asked. Parading your Greek illiteracy here is not helpful, just funny in a stupid way.

Next question.
Please, from the scriptures show us this visit to the tomb...everywhere the visit is mentioned.


What I need from you Gerhard are verses describing the women's FIRST visit and then another set describing the SECOND visit. But to avoid confusion, let's start with the FIRST visit verses

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Thank you Gerhard
Learn to answer the questions you are asked. Parading your Greek illiteracy here is not helpful, just funny in a stupid way.

Next question.
Please, from the scriptures show us this visit to the tomb...everywhere the visit is mentioned

Sorry, I cannot because <<this visit to the tomb>> IS NOT <<everywhere mentioned>> It is mentioned or referred to in only Luke 24, twice. Show you, me and us, where <<<this visit to the tomb (is) everywhere mentioned>>> in the Scriptures.

 

[vooks]

Sorry, I cannot because <<this visit to the tomb>> IS NOT <<everywhere mentioned>> It is mentioned or referred to in only Luke 24, twice. Show you, me and us, where <<<this visit to the tomb (is) everywhere mentioned>>> in the Scriptures.

Give us the specific verse(s) for this visit

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Give us the specific verse(s) for this visit

You are only provoking me to react in un-Christ-like manner.

For the last time, I will not address you in person again no matter in which discussion or forum.

 

[vooks]

You are only provoking me to react in un-Christ-like manner.

For the last time, I will not address you in person again no matter in which discussion or forum.

I discovered humans especially babies get irritated when their bubbles are burst. Am bursting your silly 'harmonization'. Vooks is not your imaginary debaters you love to knock off. If you don't want your fickle theories to be questioned, then don't post them in a public forum:tonofbricks:

Please give me the specific verses of Luke 24 , the ONLY ones that describe the women's FIRST and midnight visit to the tomb.

Once you do that, give me the specific verse(s) that describe the women's SECOND early morning trip.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Vooks:

GIBBERISH
Luke 24:8-11 (KJV)
And they remembered his words, 9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles. 11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not
It was the women who broke the news to the 11.
Among the women was Mary Magdalene.
John 20:2 (KJV)
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him
I don't know what Gehard is smoking or sniffing but Mary reported NOT a moved stone but a missing body! How did she know the body was missing? Did she infer all that from a moved rock? She went inside and saw the body missing.

Exposed:

Vooks is asking the silly question, <<<How did she know the body was missing? Did she infer all that from a moved rock?>>>, then demands from me an explanation! The cheek!
In John 20:1-10
Mary did not <<know the body was missing>>. It is an outright lie;
Mary did not <<report a missing body>>. It is an outright lie;
Mary never <<went inside and saw the body missing>>. It is an outright lie.

And Mary must have <<reported a moved stone>> or how if Mary had not told them
would Peter and John know that they could go and see for themselves; and how
would the other women have known of the cast-away stone; or how
would John for that matter eventually have recorded it for posterity?

Vooks fraudulently quotes Luke 24, then John 20:2 as though they are the same and the same time,

<<<Luke 24:8-11. . .And they returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven>>>. . . as if <<all these things>> in Luke 24 were <the news> which Mary Magdalene told Peter and John in John 20.

Because Mary Magdalene was <<among the women>> in Luke 24, therefore it must be the same <news> Mary Magdalene had told Peter and John in John 20; and therefore John 20:1-9 and Luke 24:1-10 must be the same event—, the event of Jesus’ Resurrection on Sunday morning . . . according to Vooks.

According to Vooks, Mary <reports> in great consternation the stone rolled away and, according to Vooks, <reports> the body <missing> while she herself had been assured by the two angels at the empty grave that Jesus had raised!?

According to Vooks Mary first had told the disciples Jesus had raised, then she comes <reporting> to them the body was <missing>?!

Vooks: <<<they believed them not … It was the women who broke the news (OF THE RESURRECTION) to the 11. … Among the women was Mary Magdalene. ... Then she ... cometh ... and saith unto them ... A MISSING BODY>>>

Help me!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Vooks:
Read this verse carefully;
John 20:2 (KJV)
Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him
What does Mary Magdalene mean by WE if she alone visited the tomb?
Matthew 28:1 (KJV)
In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre
The answer is she didn't, they went there with the women, finds the stone rolled away, she dashes back to tell Peter no John. They come back to the tomb and peep in, and leave. Mary is left inside the tomb and Jesus appears to her.

GE:

Matthew 28:1-4 is not the event that happened in John 20:1-10.
In Matthew, Mary Magdalene “set out to go have a look at the tomb”.

Having just quoted John 20:1,2 and Matthew 28:1, Vooks claims <<Mary Magdalene and the other Mary>> not <<alone visited the tomb>> but <<they went there with the women>> nowhere mentioned or alluded to in either John or Matthew but in Luke 24.

Then he claims that <she>, Mary, <<dashes back to tell Peter no John>>— nowhere in any Gospel!

Then that <they>, Mary and Peter, <<<come back to the tomb and peep in, and leave>>>— again nowhere in any Gospel.

Vooks tells, Peter and Mary <<peeped in and left>>. Peter went in-- he did not merely <peep in>.

Vooks actually tells these ‘things’ as though they were written in Matthew!

Vooks says Mary <<is left inside the tomb and Jesus appears to her>>>. . . what a direct untruth!

Then Vooks has the temerity to ask his ridiculous question, <<<What does Mary Magdalene mean by WE if she alone visited the tomb?>>> for crying out loud!

 

[vooks]

Let's get methodical.
You claim the women made two trips to the tomb, one around midnight, the other early in the morning.

You also claim the midnight trip is recorded in Luke and nowhere else.

Could you be kind enough to paste the midnight trip verse(s) and the morning trip verse(s) and properly indicate such?

Your failure to do this and silly digression is the clearest evidence of the shaky grounds your 'harmony' rests on. It's as mythical as Loch Ness

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Vooks:

2. THEY (the ones who had spices) visited the tomb early in the morning. Morning by all stretch of hallucination can't be Saturday evening(1800H) nor midnight(0000H)
3. THEY (including Mary) wondered who was going to roll away the stone.
How could Mary who had witnessed the stone rolled away some 6 hours or so before wonder who would roll it away? Or are we to assume she had kept this information to herself all the way?

GE:

After sunset and night has set in, Mary had for the first time witnessed the stone rolled away from the tomb in the dusk. John 20:1,2

<<Some 6 hours or so>> later just after midnight she had seen the rolled away stone again, before she and the other women went into the tomb. Luke 24:1-3.

Some 3 hours or so after, she and some companions “looked up the stone again” for the third time that night, some 3 hours “very early before sunrise” on Sunday morning. And she must have wondered “as the women were speaking among themselves, saying, Who would roll the stone away for us it is so BIG!?” Mark 16:2,3.

What is it that you cannot understand?