How old is the earth?

[quantumfaith]

That is a VERY human-based thought. Why would we accuse God of being deceptive if He chose to create a fully mature universe? We agree that He created fully mature plants, animals, and humans, but when it comes to the universe or other signs that there may have been continual action for longer than was actually true, we seem to want to make God a liar, simply because He chose to do it that way.

Remember, He is God and created as He chose, for His purposes, and to fulfill whatever needed fulfillment by His divine decree based in His divine will.

I am still shocked that so many people can so easily attribute nefarious attributes to God simply because we may not understand (or like) something that He has indeed done. God help us all... Only He can!

The reason it is "human based" is because I am HUMAN. You seem to accuse me of reasoning that God cannot do as HE pleases. Is is not your position also strongly against mine of "free will", where in fact I suggest that God could have created us with "free will" and responsibility for that.

I dont suggest anything nefarious regarding God or his motives, only that one could reason that if God simply wanted us to "see" the earth and universe as very old, then one could argue that is in a sense deceptive.

Please, brother be cautious in your implications.

 

[InTheLight]

That is a VERY human-based thought. Why would we accuse God of being deceptive if He chose to create a fully mature universe? We agree that He created fully mature plants,

I don't.

8 The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. 9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food.

animals, and humans, but when it comes to the universe or other signs that there may have been continual action for longer than was actually true, we seem to want to make God a liar, simply because He chose to do it that way.

MAY HAVE done it that way.

 

[InTheLight]

Good thought... Adam was designed to live forever. In a sense, he had the body that we will one day inherit once we cross over into eternity.

Conjecture. We don't know if our heavenly bodies will resemble Adam's pre-Fall body.

He was genetically perfect

Actually, he was "very good". "Perfect" was never used in the Bible to describe either the creation or Adam.

Ever met a true genius? How about someone with a true photographic memory. What of the man who can run sub 4-minute miles, or those who can run marathons in mere hours instead of days. Strength, intelligence, acuity, feelings, emotions, soul, etc., were all declared by God, "very good." We can piece together what that "very good" man looked like by taking all the best attributes of humanity and wrapping them up into one person.

I think you are setting your sights too low....

It is only the infiltration of the evolutionary worldview that causes us to think that we have evolved to a point of superiority to Adam (or even early humans)

Strawman.

 

[jbh28]

Other threads have been over this before. Anyway I agree with your friend and do not believe that the Bible is contradicted. I know Genesis is open to interpretation and I believe the word translated as "day" does not necessarily mean 24 hours. The Hebrew word used can mean time periods longer than a day. Genesis was written so that a pre-scientific people could understand it. It was never meant to be a scientific explanation. If God had given a scientific explanation no one then would have understood and it would have been discarded as gibberish ... IMHO.

I believe the most important words in Genesis are "In the beginning God ....

While I disagree with your interpretation of "day" I agree 100% with the last line. If I get to heaven and find out that I'm wrong about the length of the creation days, I'll be fine because I know that it was God that created it all.

 

[jbh28]

I have heard of this "theory" that God made earth and creation to simply "appear" to be old, that just seems to me to be a bit on the deceptive side, and I see no need for God to be so.

What's "deceptive" about it?

 

[quantumfaith]

What's "deceptive" about it?

Well,

First of all it is NOT my position that God made things to appear "old". It is my position is that they ARE old. I think it perfectly reasonable that if one wants to say that things are not really "old" God just wanted them to appear "old", then yes to me that does appear to me to be somewhat deceptive. I have noted others (other threads/boards) who wished to argue that God only made things appear old in oder to "confuse and confound" man. I personally do not see God doing such. Rather, as an "image bearer" with the sentience and rational thought granted to me marvel at the intricacies and wonders of his creation.

 

[glfredrick]

The reason it is "human based" is because I am HUMAN. You seem to accuse me of reasoning that God cannot do as HE pleases. Is is not your position also strongly against mine of "free will", where in fact I suggest that God could have created us with "free will" and responsibility for that.

I dont suggest anything nefarious regarding God or his motives, only that one could reason that if God simply wanted us to "see" the earth and universe as very old, then one could argue that is in a sense deceptive.

Please, brother be cautious in your implications.

I'm not implying anything other than what I wrote. By now, you should know that I am not bashful about sharing my thoughts... :laugh:

I am bold to say that however God created the universe, to appear old for instance, is not deceptive. It is the way He created it. Last week, I was in a furniture store. They were selling what appeared to be antique furniture. It was aged, had spots, places where things had left scratches, etc. it was designed that way by the designer and it was brand new. The furniture was not "deceptive" nor was the designer. It was just a particular style that some people are willing to pay to get. If we can fathom such a concept as humans, how much more could God -- the only true Creator (all others are just re-arrangers) not make whatever it was that He willed in whatever appearance?


You do realize just how alien a concept like "deception" is in context of God, right? Anything resembling that notion flies in the face of a God who cannot lie, and who has majored on the concept of "truth" as one of the central tenets of the entirety of the creative order. Satan is the "father of lies" not God. That's why I am insisting that even if God created with an "old" look, He cannot be seen as "deceptive" for so doing. Our worldview and theology must match up to God, not make God match up to us.

 

[glfredrick]

Conjecture. We don't know if our heavenly bodies will resemble Adam's pre-Fall body.

Which is why I did not make an outright statement of fact. But there is an inference in Scripture that God will eventually "re-create" this world (indeed, the entire cosmos) and in that inference we can see where He might cause the new heaven and the new earth to match His first effort because ultimately, as God, His will cannot be thwarted, even by the evil one or the fall.

Actually, he was "very good". "Perfect" was never used in the Bible to describe either the creation or Adam.

We would have to argue the semantics of the Hebrew and also draw some conclusions about God's ex nihilo creative effort pre-fall. I think that we can reasonably infer that Adam was created to live forever and that his genetic structure was indeed "perfect" he (and his wife) not being born (created!) post-curse like the rest of us.

I think you are setting your sights too low....

I agree... But why do you take me to task for using the word "perfect" above? Do you consider Adam in some way flawed?

It is only the infiltration of the evolutionary worldview that causes us to think that we have evolved to a point of superiority to Adam (or even early humans)

Strawman.

Not when that worldview is directing your thoughts on this issue...

 

[mandym]

The age of the earth and evolution are only related in the sense that "evolution" in Darwinian terms (and others) require great amounts of time. However, the science of the age of the earth (and universe) and evolution are distinct branches of science. There is no "kabal" existing between scientists to "rig the data" to complement one another.

I personally, believe the earth to be approximately 4.5 billion years old, and the age of the universe to be approximately 13.78 billion years old. There is much well grounded science to suggest that totally unrelated to evolutionary biology.

It matters not. One is used to support the other.

 

[freeatlast]

All of creation happened 6 to 10 thousand years ago. I am a little confused as to how the earth and/or the universe looks old. Does someone have a picture to compare the now to then with?

 

[preachinjesus]

First of all it is NOT my position that God made things to appear "old". It is my position is that they ARE old.

What is the difference epistemologically?

If God creates with age and it appears old, how are we to understand His intent otherwise? If God creates with age and we look at something and say "man that is old" what is the difference between that and if it were (in God's actual perception) only several thousand years old?

If it is beyond the human ken to discern God's actual act and result what is the difference between our ability to see and the actuality?

BTW, I believe that not only does God create with age and things appear to millions/billions of years old but that they are in fact very, very old since the Garden of Eden was a period of unregulated time given its unique place related to the rest of creation.

 

[InTheLight]

Our worldview and theology must match up to God, not make God match up to us.

That's an interesting statement, especially in view of the idea that creation days one through three were 24 hours long, even though the sun had not yet been created, which is the human basis for 24 hour days. So are we humans making God match up with our views when we contend that days one through three were 24 hours long?

 

[quantumfaith]

That's an interesting statement, especially in view of the idea that creation days one through three were 24 hours long, even though the sun had not yet been created, which is the human basis for 24 hour days. So are we humans making God match up with our views when we contend that days one through three were 24 hours long?

Great Point, I thought it might be "pointless" to point that out.

 

[glfredrick]

That's an interesting statement, especially in view of the idea that creation days one through three were 24 hours long, even though the sun had not yet been created, which is the human basis for 24 hour days. So are we humans making God match up with our views when we contend that days one through three were 24 hours long?

Did you really just ask that?

Who created days of a certain length? Why do those days have to be a human measurement of the rotation of the earth around the sun? If God decreed a 24-hour day, sun or no sun, it would be a 24-hour day. You really are far from the Scriptures (and by implication, from God).

On a side note, it is interesting that every human culture down through the ages have used a 7-day week (if they had such a concept as "week"). We seem to have a 7-day rhythm built into our bodies.

 

[InTheLight]

Did you really just ask that?

Who created days of a certain length?

God did. Human days on earth are 24 hours long.

Why do those days have to be a human measurement of the rotation of the earth around the sun?

Because God is timeless, humans are bound in time. Because if you ascribe a day to God as being 24 hours long you are applying human traits to Him. The 24 hour day was created for man, God is not bound by it.

Here's a fav verse of Calvinists I'm sure you'll recognize:

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

(BTW, days are the time it takes for the earth to spin one rotation on its axis. Years are the time it takes for the earth to rotate around the sun.)

If God decreed a 24-hour day, sun or no sun, it would be a 24-hour day.

IF is the operative word. No evidence of Days 1 through 3 being decreed to be 24 hours long in scripture.

You really are far from the Scriptures (and by implication, from God).

I see--if someone disagrees with you, you play the "I'm a better Christian than you" card. I'll remember that.

On a side note, it is interesting that every human culture down through the ages have used a 7-day week (if they had such a concept as "week"). We seem to have a 7-day rhythm built into our bodies.

You'll have to prove to me that "every human culture through the ages have used a 7 day week".

 

[nodak]

The Bible does not tell us the length of the days. We get that by reasoning.

And that same reasoning can lead to an old earth.

I would have told him contrary to what the grandkids think I wasn't around for creation. God may have made a mature seeming young earth. He could have made an old earth.

But for certain He did the creating.

I think we see Satan getting a foothold here. We cling to our interpretation of Scripture for things God just hasn't told us, and assume the lost are rebelliously rejecting God when they disagree with us.

Rather than not try to win him to Christ until he accepts a young earth, I would have tried to win him Jesus and given him a Bible and told him go read it and ask God to guide you.

 

[quantumfaith]

The Bible does not tell us the length of the days. We get that by reasoning.

And that same reasoning can lead to an old earth.

I would have told him contrary to what the grandkids think I wasn't around for creation. God may have made a mature seeming young earth. He could have made an old earth.

But for certain He did the creating.

I think we see Satan getting a foothold here. We cling to our interpretation of Scripture for things God just hasn't told us, and assume the lost are rebelliously rejecting God when they disagree with us.

Rather than not try to win him to Christ until he accepts a young earth, I would have tried to win him Jesus and given him a Bible and told him go read it and ask God to guide you.

The one and only thing we must all necessarily agree upon as believers.

 

[saturneptune]

Let's consider the following facts.
1. All you geniuses bringing forth all these theories were created by God.
2. None of you were at the Creation.
3. God created the Universe.
4. He created it the way He decided, and no doubt He is quite amused at his created beings explaining how He did it.
5. However it was, it makes no difference in anyone's salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

Let's consider the following facts.
1. All you geniuses bringing forth all these theories were created by God.
2. None of you were at the Creation.
3. God created the Universe.
4. He created it the way He decided, and no doubt He is quite amused at his created beings explaining how He did it.
5. However it was, it makes no difference in anyone's salvation.

So now YOU join this cadre of geniuses. Welcome to the club.

 

[saturneptune]

So now YOU join this cadre of geniuses. Welcome to the club.

Well, I have enough common sense to know that however God created things is way above anything we as humans with finite minds will ever understand, and that includes you.