How Romans 11 debunks OSAS

[Darrell C]

In Romans 11 the statement "YOU stand only by your faith" does not add "as long as you never sin".

The Romans 11 statement "you should FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you" does not say "so you must never sin - no not even once" and no one has argued that as the meaning for the text -- at least not so far.

The Matt 18 lesson by Christ Himself on the subject of "forgiveness revoked" does not say "if you ever sin your forgiveness is revoked" but it DOES say "SO shall my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart"

Gal 5:4 does say "you have been SEVERED from Christ you have FALLEN from Grace" - but it does not indicate that the total collapse of the OSAS man-made-tradition took place due to one single sin.



True - but notice "all the places you find that" on these threads -- someone is usually getting told 'they are a liar' or they are not saved or they worship the wrong God - at some point along the way on almost every subject. I don't argue that every poster goes to that extreme - but you can find it now and then.



Which is why when we see the readers of the Word in Romans 11 finding that THEY are the ones who "stand only by their faith" we are confident that this is addressed to BELIEVERS.

Unbelievers do not stand by faith. Rather they get the message "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Spent an hour with a reply just to receive a "fatal error" prompt.

Sometimes I am logged out while replying, and sometimes it won't let me post.
Anybody have an idea why this is happening, or if there is a way to avoid it?

 

[Darrell C]

I'll try again with a condensed reply.

 

[DHK]

If the "only" thing we had in ALL of Romans 11 was "you gentiles" we would know
1. It was not addressed to jews
2. It was addressed to Gentiles in Rome
3. It was addressed to the gentile READERS of Paul's letters which is likely to be church members as opposed to pagans down at the local bath house.

However as it turns out we have MORE than just "you gentiles".

We have "were BROKEN OFF " from the wild tree which is natural to you.
we have "were GRAFTED IN" to the same tree as the people of God
we have "you STAND BY FAITH" in that tree
we have "the root supports you" in reference to the LIFE of Christ IN the branches.

Thus - we have a lot of details telling us that this is a message to believing gentiles.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you still haven't taken the time to study the entire chapter in its context. When will you start doing that? Perhaps I will wait for that time.
When Paul was addressing (or speaking about) the Jews he mentioned the root. He was speaking about the Jewish nation. What is the root of the Jewish nation. The root is Abraham, the father of the Jewish nation. Him he set apart (made holy), and gave a promise that from him all the nations of the world would be blessed. God blessed Israel as long as Israel, through faith (Romans 4:1-5), obeyed the Lord. But some did not believe. They were cut off. Eventually the entire nation was cut off. What were they cut off from? They were cut off from the privileges and blessings that God offered them.

Now God offers those privileges and blessings to all nations. It is a general invitation (John 3:16). All have the opportunity, by faith, to accept them. Christ died for the sins of the world. In the same way that the Jews (believing and unbelieving) enjoyed the protection and blessing of God, so do all Gentile nations enjoy God's privileges and blessings in a much greater degree than they did in the OT dispensation. God has dispensed his general revelation to them in a far greater degree. What do we have now? From the Jews we have the entire OT, and not the entire NT. We have Christ, and now the work of the Holy Spirit who has come to convict the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment; we have the Great Commission--the command given to all believers to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. And we have much more. Therefore all nations stand by faith. It is a general faith that must be appropriated by an individual decision.

1 John 2:2 tells us that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, but not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world.
In Titus 2, Paul says, "For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men."
In 1Peter, Peter says, "God is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

In a general way the Gentiles stand by faith. But they must obey. They must obey the gospel. If not, they too will be cut off. They will lose the blessings and privileges that the gospel message brings.

That trunk is the grace of God. It is the grace of God that brings the privileges and blessings to the nation that God has been calling out whether in the OT or in the NT. When Christ came Israel rejected Christ, and those blessings were offered to the Gentiles. If they rejected Christ, those blessings of Christ were taken away, but those that received Him were given life eternal, never to be severed.

It is the goodness of God that leads one to repentance.
In the end the Jews will return to God as a nation. God has not finished with them yet.

 

[Darrell C]

In Romans 11 the statement "YOU stand only by your faith" does not add "as long as you never sin".

The Romans 11 statement "you should FEAR for if He did not spare them neither will he spare you" does not say "so you must never sin - no not even once" and no one has argued that as the meaning for the text -- at least not so far.

The Matt 18 lesson by Christ Himself on the subject of "forgiveness revoked" does not say "if you ever sin your forgiveness is revoked" but it DOES say "SO shall my Father do to each one of you IF you do not forgive your brother from your heart"

Gal 5:4 does say "you have been SEVERED from Christ you have FALLEN from Grace" - but it does not indicate that the total collapse of the OSAS man-made-tradition took place due to one single sin.



True - but notice "all the places you find that" on these threads -- someone is usually getting told 'they are a liar' or they are not saved or they worship the wrong God - at some point along the way on almost every subject. I don't argue that every poster goes to that extreme - but you can find it now and then.



Which is why when we see the readers of the Word in Romans 11 finding that THEY are the ones who "stand only by their faith" we are confident that this is addressed to BELIEVERS.

Unbelievers do not stand by faith. Rather they get the message "we BEG you on behalf of Christ be reconciled to God" 2Cor 5.

in Christ,

Bob

To reply to this in short, you are overlooking the fact that unbelievers are contrasted with believers.

Unbelieving Israel with believing Israel (vv.1-10)

Unbelieving Israel with believing Gentiles (vv. 11-32)

With all the passages to deny eternal security, you will find the contrast is always between true and false believers, not "good" and "bad" believers.

True believers are the Israel of God, spiritual seed of Abraham. Children of God.

The reference to Matt. 18 by my estimation is used out of context. To put "revoked forgiveness" for gentiles into a passage dealing specifically with Israel is a stretch, to say the least.

In Matt. 10:5-These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6-But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

15:24-But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

If this is the case in these passages, why does it suddenly take on new meaning in Ch. 18?

In the parable of Matt. 21:33-46, The Householder is God; The vineyard is Israel; the husbandmen are Pharisees (unbelieving Israel); the servants are the prophets (c.f. vv.23-27); and the Son is Messiah.

Again, the same theme. It contrasts believers with unbelievers. The "other husbandman" (v.41) I believe to be gentiles.

While Gentile inclusion brings gentiles into the Israel of God, making them spiritually the seed of Abraham, the tree of Rom. 11 represents the body of believers of true faith, which unbelieving Israel was cut out of because of unbelief.

Vv. 30 and 31 contrast believing gentiles with unbelieving Israel.

Paul opens in v.1 with "Hath God cast away His people?" God forbid.

Who are His people?

Those that are truly His; concerning Israel, the "remnant" of v.4. These are not the branches cut out.

Will God cast away His people today?

I don't believe He will.

 

[Darrell C]

Been there, done that. I always highlight what I have written and then press "Ctrl C" at the same time. If the page messes up just redo the page and then press "Ctrl V" and it will paste what you had highlighted.

:wavey:

Thank you for this.

I asked several times without reply.

I didn't even get a joke about the "fatal error" of my post!

Don't think that I would have let that slip by.

 

[Darrell C]

In Romans 6, 7, and 8 there is no "Jew vs Gentile" context at all.

Romans 6 is not arguing that "just Jews" should not be a slave to sin - but Gentiles should go ahead and be enslaved to sin.

In Romans 7 the comparison is not "Jew vs Gentile" rather it is Lost vs Saved.

In Romans 7 the lost person is bound legally to the penalty that the Law demands. (true of BOTH Jew and Gentile). Paul says that once that person is saved - they are released from the condemnation of the law - the death sentence imposed by the Law. (True of both Jew and Gentile).

Paul says that IN HIS case - apart from salvation as a unrepentant Jew - he was "ALIVE" because he thought he was blameless (IN Phil 3 he says that in terms of the righteousness that comes through the Law - in his former way of life he was "blameless").

But at the conviction that comes through the Holy Spirit - and the New Birth - New Creation event - he suddenly saw that the Law of God "is Holy Just and Good" but that he himself was "sinful". It is just at that point - were he had turned from being an unbelieving Jew - that he suddenly saw his problem - because now he is fully in agreement with God's Law, yet is confronted by "SIN IN ME" at war with the Law of my mind.

Now let's suppose your scenario above -- that the "Law of his Mind" is the "Bad Bible". (whatever part of the OT you care to pick). That means that "SIN IN HIM" was actually "at WAR" with "the BAD Bible" that some would say we are not supposed to pay attention to.

How is it that SIN is then in agreement with those who suppose there is a "Bad Bible" that must be ignored according to Romans 7?

in Christ,

Bob

It would seem, that we are in agreement up until Rom. 11.

Where does your view here take the turn to disregarding lost vs. saved?

By the way, you make some pretty good posts earlier.

I'll go back and read, try to find out your thoughts.

But for now, I'll try to address Rom. 11 with a little more detail.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

In Romans 11 the statement "YOU stand only by your faith" does not add "as long as you never sin".

You contrast "lost and saved" in other chapters of Romans, but here you do not.

That is interesting.

The first part of v.20...Well; because of unbelief they were broken off (Unbelievers)

The second part...and thou standest by faith.
(believers)

They (unbelieving Israel) will be grafted back in if they become believers (v.23)...

It still contrasts the lost and the saved.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed -- of the then lost it says "they were REMOVED for unbelief... he is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

Of the saved it says "You stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM neither will he spare you".

Hence the problem for OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

To reply to this in short, you are overlooking the fact that unbelievers are contrasted with believers.

Far be it from me to ignore that -


of the then lost it says "they were REMOVED for unbelief... he is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

Of the saved it says "You stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM neither will he spare you".

Hence the problem for OSAS.

Unbelieving Israel with believing Israel (vv.1-10)

Unbelieving Israel with believing Gentiles (vv. 11-32)

Paul of course is an example of believing Jews.

The BELIEVING gentiles then being told "you stand only by your faith".

Thus the OSAS prediction that those believing - those who stand only by their faith - should NEVER need a warnding of the form "you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM neither will he spare you".

The more "unsaved" you care to make the Jews that were "removed for unbelief" -- the worse the problem for OSAS in the warning given to the saved.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The reference to Matt. 18 by my estimation is used out of context. To put "revoked forgiveness" for gentiles into a passage dealing specifically with Israel is a stretch, to say the least.

Is it your claim that saved Jewish Christians DO NOT qualify for OSAS -- only saved gentiles qualify for it??

That is the first I ever heard of that one!!

Or are you claiming that lost Jews are fully forgiven -- and have no debt before God?

Or are you claiming that we are to ignore the Gospels and the teaching of Christ now?

I find the logic in your argument to be illusive at that point.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Agreed -- of the then lost it says "they were REMOVED for unbelief... he is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

Of the saved it says "You stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM neither will he spare you".

Hence the problem for OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Its really not the problem you present.

That they stand by faith is a given...we have always been saved by grace through faith (Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, and Hebrews tells us it was by faith he built the ark).

It is Gentiles in general that are in danger of not being spared...if they fall into unbelief, they will not be spared.

But the contrast is always going to be between lost and saved...you can't ascribe salvation to those who are lost.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Far be it from me to ignore that -


of the then lost it says "they were REMOVED for unbelief... he is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

Of the saved it says "You stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM neither will he spare you".

Hence the problem for OSAS.




Paul of course is an example of believing Jews.

The BELIEVING gentiles then being told "you stand only by your faith".

Thus the OSAS prediction that those believing - those who stand only by their faith - should NEVER need a warnding of the form "you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM neither will he spare you".

The more "unsaved" you care to make the Jews that were "removed for unbelief" -- the worse the problem for OSAS in the warning given to the saved.

in Christ,

Bob

You are ascribing salvation to unbelievers: these are they that were cut off. Jesus said their father was the devil.

They were not saved.

They are of Israel, but Israel the true were those that were genuinely God's people.

In like fashion (pay close attention to this), those of the gentiles who are unbelievers...will likewise be cut off.

They will not be saved either. The ones who are not genuinely God's people will be cut off.

 

[Darrell C]

Is it your claim that saved Jewish Christians DO NOT qualify for OSAS -- only saved gentiles qualify for it??

That is the first I ever heard of that one!!

Or are you claiming that lost Jews are fully forgiven -- and have no debt before God?

Or are you claiming that we are to ignore the Gospels and the teaching of Christ now?

I find the logic in your argument to be illusive at that point.

in Christ,

Bob

Honestly, Bob, I don't know how I gave you this impression.

What I said was this passage is Jesus talking to Jews, and the imagery is that of Israel...not the Church, which is comprised of Jew and Gentile.

You are using a passage that is specifically directed at Jews, and applying it to all Christians.

I think it to be out of context, just as applying Hebrews 10:26 to Gentiles is out of context.

To try to clarify, Jesus' ministry was indeed to all, but He said He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel only.

Gentile inclusion was still a "mystery" at this point, and later clarified.

We are the "other husbandmen", so to speak.

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

How about another passage debunking OSAS?

 

[steaver]

You are ascribing salvation to unbelievers: these are they that were cut off. Jesus said their father was the devil.

They were not saved.

They are of Israel, but Israel the true were those that were genuinely God's people.

In like fashion (pay close attention to this), those of the gentiles who are unbelievers...will likewise be cut off.

They will not be saved either. The ones who are not genuinely God's people will be cut off.

Very good points brother.

This is the teaching of Romans 11 in a nutshell.

Bob's pov is ascribing salvation to unbelieving Israel as though these Paul speaks of WERE SAVED just because they were born Israelites and then at some time they decided to NOT BELIEVE anymore.

Good observation Darrell. :jesus:

 

[steaver]

I believe what throws one off on Romans 11 is that they do not make the distinction between being in Christ as a "offspring of God" human being and being in Christ as a "child of God" human being. We find both examples in the scriptures and they need to be rightly divided.

All human beings are in Christ in the "offspring of God" application of the phrase. One cannot live and breath apart from Jesus Christ maintaining that life. If Christ were to cease existing all of creation would cease simultaneously.

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

There is only one of the most popular translations that has done damage to this doctrine by translating offspring as children and therefore losing an important passage concerning this doctrinal distinction. It is the NASB. All the other most used translations correctly made the distinction.

Armed with this understanding that there is a distinction between being in Christ as an offspring and in Christ by faith we can better understand what Paul was speaking of in Romans 11.

:jesus:

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Steaver,

I believe what throws one off on Romans 11 is that they do not make the distinction between being in Christ as a "offspring of God" human being and being in Christ as a "child of God" human being. We find both examples in the scriptures and they need to be rightly divided.

All human beings are in Christ in the "offspring of God" application of the phrase. One cannot live and breath apart from Jesus Christ maintaining that life. If Christ were to cease existing all of creation would cease simultaneously.

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

There is only one of the most popular translations that has done damage to this doctrine by translating offspring as children and therefore losing an important passage concerning this doctrinal distinction. It is the NASB. All the other most used translations correctly made the distinction.

Armed with this understanding that there is a distinction between being in Christ as an offspring and in Christ by faith we can better understand what Paul was speaking of in Romans 11.

:jesus:

Hello brother,

It took me a minute (I can be a little dense, at times), but I think I see your point, in which I agree.

If I follow what you're saying correctly, you are talking about the fact that God is Father to mankind in the sense of God is said to be the Father of Adam, and all are children of Adam.

The flipside being, not all men are Children of God (heirs, and joint heirs with Christ through salvation).

Israel thought they were safe in their heritage, and we (gentiles) can fall into the same trap of complacency.

I think "God has no grandchildren" sums it up best.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Agreed -- of the then lost it says "they were REMOVED for unbelief... he is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief".

Of the saved it says "You stand only by your faith .. you should FEAR for if He did not spare THEM neither will he spare you".

Hence the problem for OSAS.

Hi Bob,

Its really not the problem you present.

That they stand by faith is a given...we have always been saved by grace through faith (Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord, and Hebrews tells us it was by faith he built the ark).

It is Gentiles in general that are in danger of not being spared...if they fall into unbelief, they will not be spared.

But the contrast is always going to be between lost and saved...you can't ascribe salvation to those who are lost.

God bless.

Hi Darrell -

The probelm with your workaround is that you take those whom the text says "ARE standing" by their faith -- and you then call them "Gentiles in general" as if unbelieving Gentiles would have to "FALL" into unbelief from their current position of -- unbelief.

Trying to get OSAS out of this - turns the text into mush.

There is no text in all of scripture stating that the lost are "standing by faith".

There is no text in all of scripture telling the lost to "persevere" in their lost condition.

There is no text in all of scripture warning the lost against the danger of falling from their exalted lost position.

Trying to get OSAS to survive the Romans 11 text appears to be impossible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

One cannot live and breath apart from Jesus Christ maintaining that life. If Christ were to cease existing all of creation would cease simultaneously.

Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

The problem with that attempt to salvage OSAS - is that in the Acts 17 context - both the "broken-off" and unbelieving Jews of Romans 11 - AND ALSO the devil himself are all getting their "existence" from the One Creator and Sustainer GOD.

But John 15 and Romans 11 are specifically speaking of people being broken off - and YET STILL ALIVE.

In fact Romans 11 is clear "HE is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in UNBELIEF".

Thus the spiritual context for Romans 11 is explicit.

Thus the attempt above to spare OSAS failed to survive Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

How about another passage debunking OSAS?

Gal 5:4 "Severed from Christ -- FALLEN from grace"
Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked"
John 15 "branches in me" that are removed and cast into fire
Hebrews 6 - those that have escaped the world and its lusts and have tasted of the good things of the age to come - and yet have turned back...

In Christ,

Bob