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How Should nonCatholics view the CC

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by BobRyan, Apr 5, 2003.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    The point is that Catholics are NOT coming in here with non-Catholic historical "independant" views to recommend to non-Catholics and we certainly can't EXPECT non-Catholics to go to catholic propagandists for their views on history.

    So the question remains - WHAT do Catholics EXPECT (in the IDEAL sense) for non-CAtholics to be thinking of the Catholic institution AS it relates to .. the list.

    -its apostacy,
    -role in history in the dark ages,
    -role in the Bible's view of world history,
    -role in doctrinal errors in Christendom historically.


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #61 BobRyan, Apr 20, 2003
  2. GraceSaves

    GraceSaves New Member

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    Bob,

    Might you first explain why doctrinal differences amogst churches you consider to be Christian are not apostacy, but those of the Catholic Church are?

    You see, your entire presentation is loaded.

    God bless,

    Grant
     
    #62 GraceSaves, Apr 20, 2003
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Grant,

    If the only Catholic "answer" is "Non-Catholics must BE Catholic before considering these questions" then just say so.

    The entire point was to observe the expectations of Catholics in the IDEAL scenario. To see what you "expected" the non-Catholic position to be.

    Apparently you are saying that in all these points - the non-Catholic views are already just what Catholics would "expect" even in the "ideal case".

    The point was to get Catholics to answer the question "SHORT of requiring that non-Catholics first BE Catholic or that they simply NOT-think-about-these-issues - what is the IDEAL view that a non-Catholic should have on these issues".

    So far the Catholic response is so "defensive" they have not been able to answer the question one way or another.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #63 BobRyan, Apr 20, 2003
  4. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    Why not? Why not try to see both sides of a story? If your view of the CC comes only from antiCatholic "propagandists", why not see what the CC itself has to say about the issues you have.

    Wait. You know what kind of "lies" they'll tell you because the authors you read have already told you that the CC is the "Whore of Babylon", the Pope is the "antiChrist", the CC has fed itself on the blood of millions of martyrs, yadda, yadda ,yadda.

    In that case, you're right, I don't EXPECT you
     
    #64 Glen Seeker, Apr 21, 2003
  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Why not? Why not try to see both sides of a story? If your view of the CC comes only from antiCatholic "propagandists", why not see what the CC itself has to say about the issues you have.
    </font>[/QUOTE]    [/QUOTE]
    Why not? Perhaps it is because the average non-Catholic is bombarded by Catholic propaganda that he doesn't have to go to Catholic resources. Why not? Perhapts it is because the average non-Catholic is sick of reading revisionist history books that are either highly influenced by, or put out by the Catholic Church. Even many articles in encyclopedias are biased toward Catholics because they are written or edited by Catholics themselves.

    Why not? Perhaps it is because the average non-Catholic gets weary of presenting what he believes is good resource material, only to be scorned by the Catholics. They will deride the author, or the material in some way, but the real problem simply stems from the fact that it is not Catholic. Offer a Baptist History book for example, instead of history from a Catholic historian, and automatically it becomes unreliable, not worthy to be considered.

    BTW, What do you think of David Cloud's material?
    David Cloud
    DHK
     
    #65 DHK, Apr 21, 2003
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Is this the "ANSWER" then?

    Are Catholics going to say that the "reasonable expectation of Catholics is that all non-Catholics should read only CATHOLIC historical views and should REJECT any historian that is not painting a rosey history for the Catholic church in the dark ages EVEN though some Catholic historians themselves show the butchery going on at that time was of the Catholic church??"

    Is it "just as reasonable" for Non-Catholic christians to THEN start expecting that the "IDEAL" for Catholics is that they should ONLY accept NON-Catholic historical reviews of the dark ages?

    The truth is - non-Catholics would be glad if Catholics would just accept CATHOLIC histories done by best-selling well-accepted Catholic authors that attempt to be slightly fair and balanced.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #66 BobRyan, Apr 21, 2003
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I have read a "good catholic source" for history - Thomas Bokenkotter's "Concise History of the Cathohlic Church" - this best-selling author, and church historian presents a fairly balanced view for a catholic reporting on his own church.

    And DO YOU do the same with non-Catholic historians?

    Well duhh! If you will recall "I am not already Catholic". Of course I "do accept non-Catholic histgories" and of course I "do accept that the Catholic church is in apostacy - doctrinal error". Obviously that would have to be the case - else I would "BE" catholic.

    Surely we can see that point.

    In fact the CAtholic CHURCH ITSELF published this very SAME fact in "The Faith Explained" a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II where it deals with the Catholic worship of the Eucharist being REAL "idolatry" IF the non-Catholic teaching is correct.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #67 BobRyan, Apr 21, 2003
  8. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    DHK,

    I've just read some of the articles from the David Cloud site. Very interesting. I've put into "my favorites" so that I can read more as time goes by.

    My first opinion is that he is very 'hard nosed.'
    I mean, he seems to be a separatist of the highest order and will not bear anyone even associates Catholics or ecumenicals. Billy Graham, James Dobson, and Jerry Falwell are on his list of bad guys.

    I will continue to read more though you will understand that I am , of course, looking at the articles through my "tainted" CC lenses. ;)
     
    #68 Glen Seeker, Apr 22, 2003
  9. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    Ah, but you see the converse is also true. If Catholic teaching IS correct, then adoration of the Eucharist is not only right, but should be focus of our lives.

    Thus you see that the Eucharist is the focus of the Mass and the center of Catholic worship.

    As to history, I don't recall saying that anyone you referred to (by name) was in error. I mentioned Hilsop's and Hunt's books by name because the information I got on them was from Protestant sites. If you are SDA, then you put great store in the prophet Ellen G. White's revelations from God. If you believe her writings to be divinely inspired, then nothing I or anyone else can say or point you to will sway your opinion in any way at all. In that case, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    Concerning things like the Iquisition, the Catholic sites that I've been to don't paint a rosy colored gloss over it saying that it never happened. However, they don't take a figure like 3,000 and distort it to read 300,000 either.
     
    #69 Glen Seeker, Apr 22, 2003
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ahh but the subject of this thread is how do Cahtolics "expect" non-Catholics to view the Catholic church - in the IDEAL case, given the differences in doctrine for someone who is in fact NOT catholic. As already stated one "expectation" is that the Catholic church teaches idolatry.

    As for the horrid centuries of the inquisition killing only "3000"????? Even Bokenkotter won't swallow that one.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #70 BobRyan, Apr 22, 2003
  11. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I am glad that you are taking the time to read some of his articles. Most of the Catholics that I have met have just dismissed him outrightly because as an IFB he does have very conservative views.
    But I do know where you come from as well. And occasionally I take the time to glance through the early church fathers, or look something up in the Catholic encycopedia. I am a former Catholic, but felt that I could not reconcile Catholic teachings with the Bible once I was saved. (I never had a Bible before that time).
    DHK
     
    #71 DHK, Apr 22, 2003
  12. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    DHK,

    I'm really sorry that you never had a Bible until after your conversion. I was born in the late 40's and other than school books, the only books we had in our house were the Bible and a three volume edition of the lives of the saints. I remember looking at the pictures before I could read. Our parish pastor (in Hawai'i) seems to have been quite atypical (according to many "exCatholics") in that he encouraged the people of his parish to read the Scripture and the lives of saints.

    I was inspired at an early age to dedicate my life to God. Sorry to say that most of the inspiration started to faded away at the onset puberty and the discovery of girls.

    I droppped out of Church at the end of high school and did the SDA thing (sex, drugs, alchohol) for the next fourteen years. Although there were times when I attended different churches with girls that I dated (including JW's, LDS, Methodist, and Presbyterian) iI never found anything that really made me want to change my ways.

    OOPS! Sorry, didn't mean to make this a testimonial. Just wanted to say that from the posts I've read, it seems that most "former" Catholics never had or in some cases even saw a Bible until after they left the Church.

    Que Lastima! (What a pity!)
     
    #72 Glen Seeker, Apr 23, 2003
  13. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    Bob,

    I'm beginning to think that maybe you should become Catholic after all. ;)

    BTW, the numbers 3000-5000 came from a BBC program on the Spanish Inquisition.

    My point in mentioning that, is that I will read both sides of a story and not just one source. Yes, I have read serious histories written by Protestants and I've read fanciful histories (Trail of Blood for one). I have to admit though, that anytime I see words like "Papism", "Papist", and "Romish plot" I tend to believe that the author isn't going to be unbiased toward the CC and in some cases might accept anything from any source which will advance his/her antiCatholic rhetoric.

    God Bless
     
    #73 Glen Seeker, Apr 23, 2003
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Ok.

    Done.

    Now what?

    (Or are you saying that in fact the ONLY ideal that the Catholic view has is for non-Catholics to BE Catholic before allowing themselves to think about the list of points raised here?)

    Fine. I provided a best-selling pro-catholic Catholic Historian - go ahead and provide a best-selling pro-protestant protestant Historian for your view.

    I have to admit that ANY time I see the author introduce his book with his "strong AFFIRMATION of the Catholic church" I DOUBT his unbiased rendering of history - but in the case of Bokenkotter - I read him anyway.

    I tend to be at least THAT open minded.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #74 BobRyan, Apr 25, 2003
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I believe that Glen's post says it all. When discussion is open and free - and Catholics are given the chance to "think it through" they really can not come up with "an IDEAL view for a non-Catholic to have regarding the Catholic church".

    They soon realize that when Catholics complain that non-Catholics don't view the Catholic church in a positive light doctrinally OR historically it is BECAUSE any thinking reasonable person COULD not view the Catholic church in a positive light IF they held non-Catholic doctrines seriously.

    EVEN the Catholic church admits this regarding the Eucharist. That it is in fact idolatry from a non-Catholic POV IF non-Catholic doctrine is correct. (As has already been shown on this thread).

    Therefore what we see regarding "idolatry" and "Apostacy" and the attrocious actions by the RCC in the dark ages and view that the Bible takes of world history AFTER the cross - "is reasonably EXPECTED" if you start with a non-Catholic doctrinal view point.

    As Glen observes - the only OTHER option is to first BE Catholic before addressing these subjects, so that doctrinal apostacy is NOT a possibility for the RCC.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #75 BobRyan, Apr 27, 2003
  16. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    Bob,

    What is your interpretation of the
    Hate to admit it but I just don't understand what you mean by this statement. The Bible takes a view of World History?
     
    #76 Glen Seeker, Apr 27, 2003
  17. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    In mentioning the BBC production, I was trying to show that the point of view was not PRO-any side but was instead based on non-biased research. In fact one of the main researchers they cited is a Jew who started out to show how bad the Inquisition really was. He was definitely not pro either side.
     
    #77 Glen Seeker, Apr 27, 2003
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    No problem.

    In Daniel 7-12 and Rev 12-20 you get a sweeping view of world history showing successive empires and also showing the major religious movements in Christianity from the Cross to the second coming.

    Basically - the RCC recognizes that it played a major role in world history during the dark ages. So also do Protestants. It would not "surprise us" top find that the Bible includes that in its sweeping panoramic view of world events from the Cross to the 2nd coming.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #78 BobRyan, Apr 27, 2003
  19. Glen Seeker

    Glen Seeker New Member

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    I see nothing in this statement that would make you say that that we are not brothers in Christ just because I'm RCC and you're SDA(?).
     
    #79 Glen Seeker, Apr 28, 2003
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    That is true. I am not arguing that a Catholic is not a Christian.

    I am arguing that the Catholic institution is doctrinally in error "if you start with a non-Catholic doctrinal POV" AND that even the RCC says that IF the non-Catholic POV were correct about the Eucharist THEN the RCC is teaching idolatry.

    And I am also saying that if you start with that perspective - you would "expect" the Bible's world history views to include something about so significant a thing as the RCC dominanting all of Europe AND being in doctrinal error for the majority of the past 2000 years since the cross.

    Which means that what a Catholic "might reasonably expect for the IDEAL case" is that a non-Catholic would view it this way - and that non-Catholic is not doing so to "bash Catholics" but rather - because this is in fact the "BEST CASE" for a non-Catholic view, EVEN by Catholic standards.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #80 BobRyan, Apr 28, 2003
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