how strong was wine in NT times?

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Nchristian:
I would like to hear opinions on how strong was wine in the times of Jesus ministry on earth? Regular wine today is 10-12%, but I heard that in bible times people mixed wine with water. I heard a sermon where the preacher said that it was probably only 2% alcohol content. When answering my question please give some references to the source of the information.

Source is from His Word. It is so very strange, even unfathomable with what some will come up with trying to skirt what is taught in scripture to fit error taught by most churches. Of course drinking alcoholic beverages is not a sin. Regardless of what the ratio was, it was still called wine, and people got drunk if they drank too much. For those of us who drink, and are not drunkards probably just use common sense to not over do a good thing, as did Jesus, the Apostle’s, and I am sure most all the early Christians in Antioch and their reach, and the Pentecostal Israelites in Jerusalem of their reach.

I have hastily read replies, and enough verses have been produced to indicate God’s people are not to mix water with wine, or any other substance. Jesus’ blood is not mixed, and the cup that we take in church represents that blood, but we substitute with that which does not make the heart glad, and that grape juice we use is mixed with water. We do just the opposite of what the Word teaches.

It didn’t take man long to know the joy and the danger of wine and liquor. Liquor existed long before it is mentioned in Leviticus 10:9, and wine before Noah in Genesis. God expected man to have some enjoyment outside of sex, and joy of family and friends along with accomplishment of their work. God expected His nation Israel to enjoy life the fullest, by taking from the fruit of the land, and the vine. But they were not to drink any going into the tabernacle of the congregation.

The Bible teaches it not the wine or liquor that we drink is sin, but it is we if we are drunkards. We then over do, just as when we make a habit of over eating. Bad and miserable things can happen to those who become drunk, much more so than in those days, so if we wish to stay out of trouble that this condition can bring on, it only makes sense not to drink too much, or none at all. But those that do not drink for fear of sinning need to study His Word, from cover to cover.

Who has put into the mind of man and/or woman to contradict God in this matter? Who is it that says, “lips that have touched wine or liquor will never touch mine”? This is what their religion tells them. I hope they are not serious for they will never be able to kiss Jesus, and Satan uses a straw.

But people believe what they believe, and to that one that foregoes what God condones, limits their freedom in Jesus Christ. I believe they bring themselves to judging other people as willfully sinning, for they know in their own wisdom that drinking wine or liquor is a sin. Christian faith, ituttut

 

[Stratiotes]

This is always a juicey (no-pun-intended) subject for a Baptist board.

I think it is quite a stretch, in light of scripture, to try and say that all drinking is sin. Calling something a sin that God has not called a sin is a rather precarious place to put one's self. One verse I think quite plain on this subject:
"....and thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth..." Deut 14:26

The only way around it is to suggest that God intended to let them buy wine or "strong drink" but not that they should drink it...which only makes sense if you are intent on finding prohibition where it does not clearly exist.

As for the alcohol content - I don't think it matters since it was clearly enough to get people drunk or else the prohibition of getting drunk with wine would be meaningless. But, as to the water content, it was pretty common to add wine to water because the water was often not so tasty as what comes out of our taps. Wine was probably the most common drink of the time for that reason. Even today children drink wine in many parts of the world with every meal and they don't get drunk...and, oddly enough, a lot of those places in the world do not have the numbers of alcoholics the US has.

One comment, however, on a couple of misconceptions. Refrigeration - the ancients actually did have refridgeration but it just was not common. Ice could be pulled from the rivers in winter and stored in root cellars where it would keep the surrounding area cool for quite sometime thru the spring. Also, there is a recipe for juice that was uncovered from ancient times that described how to cork the bottle, cover it with pitch, and lower it with a rock into a deep lake to keep it longer. The ancients were far more inventive than we often assume.

The "weaker brother" debate is a bit of a stretch as well since Paul was referring in that passage to somehting used in worship of an idol and not to the relative evil of the food in itself. One could take the "weaker brother" to an extreme to the point where virtually everything is forbidden - and that happens in some churches. I have heard it called "the tyranny of the weaker brother" and I think that's a pretty good name for the doctrine we so often make out of that passage. To claim that we should not because then people will say we are drunkards is no argument at all - didn't they call our master a drunkard? Did they not call the first Christians drunkards? Do we really expect we will escape the same kind of treatment from the world simply by not drinking?

I think we should all examine ourselves more than we examine others in this matter. I think it might be interesting to discuss, for instance, why we are so eager to discuss this subject but generally so uneasy about discussing gluttony which, unlike drinking alcohol, is very plainly called a sin.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by Stratiotes:
This is always a juicey (no-pun-intended) subject for a Baptist board.

Like the slant as it leads to information from God that we either accept or reject.

 

[TC]

But, as to the water content, it was pretty common to add wine to water because the water was often not so tasty as what comes out of our taps.

I have also read that the wine would kill the bacteria in the water so it would be safe to drink. There are still places where it is best not to drink the water out of the tap. When I travel, I drink only bottled water. If I cannot get bottled water, then I drink something else - like beer or wine.

 

[gb93433]

If drinking was a sin can anyone imagine Paul telling Timothy to drink some wine?

 

[Rocko9]

O.K. about rotting Grape Juice . Lets try an experiment. Go to Wal-mart and buy you some grape juice , excuse me I mean non- refrigerated grape juice open it up taste it then cover it upbut do not put it in the refrigerator then taste it the next day after and the keep tasting it until it taste like it may be rotting to a small degree then log down how long it took to rot.

 

[gb93433]

There is a huge difference betwen grape juice and wine. Wine has alcohol and grape juice will begin to rot immediately. Grape juice is immediately exposed to the air and grape juice going through the fermentation process to make wine is not.

Some of you will probably laugh at this. Years ago when I was a college student my roommate and I invited some friends over for breakfast and made pancakes. After cooking a few pancakes we decided to get out the syrup. Sometime earlier I had mixed two different kinds of syrup together. When my roommate opened the syrup we realized it had been fermenting some. The stores were not open yet so we decided to eat the pancakes with our new found kind of pancake syrup.

Who would have ever thought that two different kinds of pancake syrup would ferment.

 

[Rocko9]

How long did it take for the syrup to ferment? Let's try an experiment and see>

 

[Rocko9]

Quote:
There is a huge difference betwen grape juice and wine. Wine has alcohol and grape juice will begin to rot immediately. Grape juice is immediately exposed to the air and grape juice going through the fermentation process to make wine is not.

Hmm. Lets see wine is made from grapes so it also will rot immediately because fo the grape content . I'm just trying to understand this complex theory of instant rotting grape juice.

 

[Gold Dragon]

Just an fyi that fermentation can be broken into several types based on the by-product. All fermentation is the break down of sugars by a microorganism into a by-product for energy, usually without oxygen.

Alcoholic fermentation is the by-product of yeast metabolism which takes the sugar in the grapes as energy and produces alcohol. Leavened breads also make use of carbon dioxide which is the other by-product of this process.

Acetic acid fermentation happens when bacteria metabolize those same sugars in grapes to produce acetic acid which turns things sour. Vinegar and pickling are other foods that take advantage of this type of fermentation.

In natural grapes, you will find yeast, bacteria and molds. Wine makers will ferment grapes in an environment that will encourage yeast growth/metabolism and discourage bacteria/mold growth and metabolism.

In grape juice, pasteurization takes place so that all natural yeasts, bacteria and molds are killed. Refrigeration also prevents any remaining organisms from growing. When you let grape juice "rot", you are allowing bacteria and molds to grow and encouraging acetic acid fermentation.

 

[Chad Whiteley]

I have been making wine for our church's Lord's Supper for four years. The assertion that wine has leaven in it is plainly untrue.

Leavening is a thing, a noun - it is yeast - not an action! Bread Yeast and Wine Yeast are of the same strain (Saccharomyces cereviseae). This yeast is the most frequently used because of its powerful ability to convert sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide. This happens in bread and in grape must (juice, skins, seeds, stems). However, leavened bread and grape juice have yeast still in them. There is no yeast in wine and no yeast in unleavened bread.

Jeremiah told the nation of Moab that he had rested too long "on his lees" and had not been "poured from vessel to vessel".(15) We cannot understand what God had against Moab if we are ignorant of wine-making. If the Jews had been "grape juice drinkers," they would not have understood, either.

But, the Jews did know. They knew because they were winemakers. Grape juice can not "sit on its lees". Only wine does that. The "lees" are the by-products of the fermentation process. The lees are the dead yeast from the grape skins, other sediments from the fermentation process, and the grape skins themselves.

Unless we understand that the normal reason for the hard labor of nearly all of the first-century Jews in planting and tending vineyards was to make alcoholic wine, then I contend that we cannot really understand much of scripture.

Archaeologists have found many wine-presses in Palestine, dating to Jesus' time and before. What were these wine-presses for? Why were they called "wine-presses" if not for making wine. Otherwise, wouldn't they have been called "juice-presses"? Fermenting vats were connected to the wine-presses. What were the fermenting vats for? You don't need fermenting vats to process grape juice!

How about harvest time? Whole families built temporary structures - tents, watch-towers, or booths - on the tops of stone fences which they had built to protect their vineyards. They moved out into these tents because when grapes are ripe, unless they are made into wine with great urgency - the wine is ruined.

"What is fermentation? Fermentation is the process by which the grape juice turns into wine. The formula for fermentation is: Sugar + Yeast = Alcohol + Carbon Dioxide (CO2). Sugar is present naturally in the ripe grape. Yeast also occurs naturally, as the white bloom on the grape skin . . . . The fermentation process ends when all the sugar has been converted into alcohol or the alcohol level has reached 15 percent, which kills off the yeast. The carbon dioxide dissipates into the air, except in the case of Champagne and other sparkling wines where it is retained through a special process." (Zraly, Windows on the World Complete Wine Course)

When grapes are pressed to get the juice out, what happens? The juice immediately comes into contact with the yeast on the skins. There is no easy way to avoid that. When the juice is squeezed out, the conversion of sugar to alcohol begins within minutes. Perhaps, within seconds! I have had wine "ferment on the vine on my counter at the house. It's true.

So, when grapes have been pressed to release their juice - where is the yeast?

In this process, the yeast begins on the grape skins. The yeast begins to react immediately with the sugars in the grape juice, turning the sugars to alcohol and carbon dioxide. There can be no question but that the yeast - that was on the skins - is now in the juice.

Yeast in grape juice?

There's just no way to keep it out.

The devout Jew would have been "cut off from the people" if there had been anything with yeast in it in his house during Passover and the week of Unleavened Bread!

Think about that. You can conclude as well as I that Jesus did not have grape juice in his cup. Grape juice is not the Fruit of the Vine which he blessed.

Second, I keep hearing everyone state that this wine would have been mixed with water. I object to that assertion as well on the basis that the wine we take in the Lord's Supper is an offering to the Lord, and the Lord implied that wine mixed with water was not acceptable.

Isaiah 1:21-23,"How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers. Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water: Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them."

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Chad Whiteley:
Second, I keep hearing everyone state that this wine would have been mixed with water.

Great job of presenting the truth. Those of us who have lived in wine country just do not buy into the nonsense of what some believe who just read the Share Your Ignorance of another who attempts to skirt around the truth.

It may have been me who mentioned about diluting wine with water. We do know historically that wine started being diluted on the open marketabout the second century as an attempt to sell it as pure wine and gain a larger rofit. But also in everyday life there are even those today those who dilute wine with water in society when they drink it.

 

[Humblesmith]

In the Matt 13:33 reference, leaven is still a symbol of sin. The parable still makes sense: a little leaven in the church messes up the whole church.

As for the leaven in the wine at the seder, I used to agree with you, since Vernon McGee taught the same way. But I asked the Jews for Jesus rep, and he said it was feremented. If the Jews don't know, nobody does.

 

[Helen]

Some really good responses here. Just to add, from my own research in previous years, that some wine was drunk straight and some mixed with water, depending on the preferences and occasions. And the culture. In addition, water was often 'cleansed' with wine, meaning the additon of wine to water made the water safe to drink.....hopefully....

The fact that Jesus turned BARRELS of water into wine means that either the marriage feast at Cana was enormous or that the wine was not terribly strong.

Since there was no official running around with a meter or whatever testing the alcoholic content of the various wines, it may be presumed that different wines differed in their alcoholic content.

Go visiting another family and maybe Dad should take the first taste!

By the way, the fact that Noah got drunk is not an indication of sinfulness, for the Bible never condemns him for it. It is, in my opinion, a strong evidence of the fact that the air pressure had changed after the Flood. The higher the air pressure (such as down at sea level for us), the more alcohol it takes to 'feel' it. The lower the air pressure (such as in Denver, the mile-high city), the less alcohol for the same effect. Noah knew what he was doing when he made the wine. That means he had made it before -- and was still declared the only righteous man of his times. But, perhaps drinking the amount he was used to drinking in the pre-Flood world with a much lower atmospheric pressure did him in! We do not read of him repeating this mistake! Therefore it is possible to consider his drunkenness that first time to be evidence for our sakes, not sin on his part.

 

[rsr]

Originally posted by Helen:
Just to add, from my own research in previous years, that some wine was drunk straight and some mixed with water, depending on the preferences and occasions. And the culture. In addition, water was often 'cleansed' with wine, meaning the additon of wine to water made the water safe to drink.....hopefully....

Novelist Colleen McCullough, who has immersed herself in the Roman culture of the second and first century B.C., says:

"It was not normal practice to drink wine neat — water was added, in varying proportions."

Herodotus, fifth century B.C., says:

"The Argives say that Cleomenes lost his senses, and died so miserably, on account of these doings. But his own countrymen declare that his madness proceeded not from any supernatural cause whatever, but only from the habit of drinking wine unmixed with water, which he learnt of the Scyths. These nomads, from the time that Darius made his inroad into their country, had always had a wish for revenge. They therefore sent ambassadors to Sparta to conclude a league, proposing to endeavour themselves to enter Media by the Phasis, while the Spartans should march inland from Ephesus, and then the two armies should join together in one. When the Scyths came to Sparta on this errand Cleomenes was with them continually; and growing somewhat too familiar, learnt of them to drink his wine without water, a practice which is thought by the Spartans to have caused his madness. From this distance of time the Spartans, according to their own account, have been accustomed, when they want to drink purer wine than common, to give the order to fill 'Scythian fashion.' "

Philo, an Alexandrian Jew whose life overlap that of Christ, says:

"And at all events it is plain, that unmixed wine is a poison, which is the cause, if not of death, at least of madness, and why may we not pronounce madness to be death, since by it the most important thing in us dies, namely, the mind? But it appears to me that a man would without the slightest hesitation choose (if a choice was permitted him), that death which separates and disunites the soul and the body as a lesser evil in preference to that greater one — the alienation of the mind."

 

[dale kesterson]

I remember when living in Fort Worth, Texas driving home from, work years ago, I would pass a Baird bread bakery and a Miller Beer Brewery side by side. I loved the strong smell of what I think was the yeast. Oddly I did not smell it when passing the brewery, but the bakery. It smelled almost like ale of some kind. Always wondered what that was, but never took a tour at either places