How to be a spiritual leader of the home

[JonC]

Think he refers to when paul would state that he had no clear direction from Jesus, Lord never addressed that issue, but this was hisown opinion on it. The Holy Spirit inspired his opinion though to be correct though whever he gave his "own opinion" for he said had themind of God when making it.

I believe that when Paul gave his opinion (when he stated that it was not a command from God), that it was not inspired in such a way as to be obeyed but instead to be considered as wise instruction to the church. And this was not contrary to Jesus' commandments (the commands that John is arguing against were not those things Paul gave as coming from himself and not God....Paul specifically says that those things are commanded from God).

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe that when Paul gave his opinion (when he stated that it was not a command from God), that it was not inspired in such a way as to be obeyed but instead to be considered as wise instruction to the church. And this was not contrary to Jesus' commandments (the commands that John is arguing against were not those things Paul gave as coming from himself and not God....Paul specifically says that those things are commanded from God).

Except that whatever the Spirit had given to us down as instruction would always been from God, so IF Paul saw that we should marry just believers, or that a widow better off to not remarry, both advice were "from the Lord"

Whenever paul stated this was his opinion, just meant Jesus never directly commented on something, but his opinions were guarded by God to be always in the "mind of Christ", and thus correct!

 

[John Toppass]

Hey John,

I certainly do not want to misrepresent or misunderstand what you are saying here.If you don’t mind, will you please clarify for us your view of Scripture. Do you believe only those words that the authors of the four gospels recorded as being spoken by Christ are true Scripture, or do you believe that all of the words the Apostles recorded as being of God are Scripture (e.g., do you reject the Pauline epistles, Hebrews, the letters of Peter, James, and John as true Scripture….or perhaps that they lack the authority of Scripture)?

Thanks.

If you read my previous statements, your question will be answered. I just got tired of being answered with questions and then seemingly the same question. My 5 year old grandson does that to me as well.

 

[John Toppass]

So are you saying that there are contradictions in the Scriptures? Specifically between Paul and Jesus?

I never said that there were contradictions, if you think this then you had to assume things that you do not know or either you need to carefully reread what I said. I do know that Jesus made clear in Matthew 19: 4-6, what God thought of marriage. Jesus also explained that it was Moses that allowed divorce because of the hardening of the Jews hearts. Jesus also stated that is a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery except for sexual immorality. In no way though, did Jesus say that divorce was acceptable to God. He merely stated that God would not hold the man accountable for adultery when he remarries. The man is still divorced and that is not the will of God according to Matthew 19: 6.
That is why Paul

So are you saying that there are contradictions in the Scriptures? Specifically between Paul and Jesus?

I never said that there were contradictions, if you think this then you had to assume things that you do not know or either you need to carefully reread what I said. I do know that Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19: 4-6, what God thought of marriage. Jesus also explained that it was Moses that allowed divorce because of the hardening of the Jews hearts. Jesus also stated that when a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery except for sexual immorality. In no way though, did Jesus say that divorce was acceptable to God. He merely stated that God would not hold the man accountable for adultery when he remarries. The man is still divorced and that is not the will of God according to Matthew 19: 6. (Fortunately for all of us, God forgives all our sin)
That is why Paul in 1Corintions 7: 10-16, distinguishes his thoughts from what he knows to be God's will. Just as Jesus said divorce was allowed by Moses, meaning it was not approved by God. If ANYONE contradicts what Jesus said they would be wrong, that is why Paul said in verse 10 this is what the LORD intends, then he states in vs 12 that this is what he says and not the LORD! Paul makes this plain to see because he has no intention to contradict the Word of GOD!
The Word is written so that a child may understand it, while it is good that we have those who spend their lives studying the Word, when they add something that is not there, then they are the ones in contradiction.
I can not find any contradiction in the Bible when the scriptures are read in their entirety . Those who say I seem to think there is contradiction, have not read what was said and they assume tooooo much, and you know what happens when people assume.
If my bluntness offends anyone, I feel they are trying awful hard to be offended.

 

[Yeshua1]

I never said that there were contradictions, if you think this then you had to assume things that you do not know or either you need to carefully reread what I said. I do know that Jesus made clear in Matthew 19: 4-6, what God thought of marriage. Jesus also explained that it was Moses that allowed divorce because of the hardening of the Jews hearts. Jesus also stated that is a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery except for sexual immorality. In no way though, did Jesus say that divorce was acceptable to God. He merely stated that God would not hold the man accountable for adultery when he remarries. The man is still divorced and that is not the will of God according to Matthew 19: 6.
That is why Paul

I never said that there were contradictions, if you think this then you had to assume things that you do not know or either you need to carefully reread what I said. I do know that Jesus made it clear in Matthew 19: 4-6, what God thought of marriage. Jesus also explained that it was Moses that allowed divorce because of the hardening of the Jews hearts. Jesus also stated that when a man divorces his wife and marries another, he commits adultery except for sexual immorality. In no way though, did Jesus say that divorce was acceptable to God. He merely stated that God would not hold the man accountable for adultery when he remarries. The man is still divorced and that is not the will of God according to Matthew 19: 6. (Fortunately for all of us, God forgives all our sin)
That is why Paul in 1Corintions 7: 10-16, distinguishes his thoughts from what he knows to be God's will. Just as Jesus said divorce was allowed by Moses, meaning it was not approved by God. If ANYONE contradicts what Jesus said they would be wrong, that is why Paul said in verse 10 this is what the LORD intends, then he states in vs 12 that this is what he says and not the LORD! Paul makes this plain to see because he has no intention to contradict the Word of GOD!
The Word is written so that a child may understand it, while it is good that we have those who spend their lives studying the Word, when they add something that is not there, then they are the ones in contradiction.
I can not find any contradiction in the Bible when the scriptures are read in their entirety . Those who say I seem to think there is contradiction, have not read what was said and they assume tooooo much, and you know what happens when people assume.
If my bluntness offends anyone, I feel they are trying awful hard to be offended.

Do you see all of theNTequally as true as to what Jesus stated? That there are nothing written by any of the Apostlethat was not tue, and equal to what Jesus had stated?

 

[JonC]

If you read my previous statements, your question will be answered. I just got tired of being answered with questions and then seemingly the same question. My 5 year old grandson does that to me as well.

Brother, I don’t mean to appear difficult, nitpicky, or childish when I ask these questions of you. I think that most of us here would agree that Paul’s writings and Matthew’s writings are not contradictions precisely because they are of the same Author

As you well stated, Paul’s authority comes from Jesus, and I am sure that you are not arguing that Matthew’s authority did not. So when Matthew records something as “Jesus said”, we cannot assume it has more authority than when Paul says (as he does in 1 Corinthians 7:10) “But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord”. I think that we can leave this behind and if it helps we can do so as a misunderstanding due to careless reading on my part.

I agree with you that divorce is not the will of God. There is a difference between what is permissible and what is desired, and God clearly has designed marriage to be between one man and one woman for life. Matthew’s is not permission to divorce but rather a statement that one who does put away his wife for reasons of fornication is not guilty of adultery if he remarries. Divorce is always a product of a heart which is hardened or resistant, to an extent, to God.

Paul’s command from the God in 1 Cor. 7:10 agrees with Matthew’s record of Jesus’ teaching. God commands that the wife should not leave her husband – but if she does she is to remain unmarried or reconciled back to her husband. And the husband should likewise not heave his wife.

And Paul’s personal advice, the application of this to the life of the believer who finds him or herself unequally yoked, agrees with God’s command. It is as if Paul is speaking pastorally. The believing partner is not to divorce the unbelieving spouse. But if the unbelieving partner leaves the believer, then the believer is no longer under bondage.

The question, then, is if this “bondage” is a release from the marriage vows and freedom to remarry. Paul’s application could be seen as nullifying the marriage and allowing the believer to remarry or it could be seen as freeing the believer from those bonds of marriage (they are no longer yoked to the unbeliever). But I believe that Paul is speaking within the bounds already given.

In Matthew 19, after Jesus’ words to the Pharisees on marriage, his disciples say “If the relationship of a man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” Jesus response? "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

It seems (to me) that Paul is telling the believer that he or she is no longer bound to the unbelieving spouse who leaves. They are no longer yoked, no longer "one". There no longer exists a responsibility or accountability for the other. Paul is not giving permission to remarry in this passage.

 

[Yeshua1]

Brother, I don’t mean to appear difficult, nitpicky, or childish when I ask these questions of you. I think that most of us here would agree that Paul’s writings and Matthew’s writings are not contradictions precisely because they are of the same Author

As you well stated, Paul’s authority comes from Jesus, and I am sure that you are not arguing that Matthew’s authority did not. So when Matthew records something as “Jesus said”, we cannot assume it has more authority than when Paul says (as he does in 1 Corinthians 7:10) “But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord”. I think that we can leave this behind and if it helps we can do so as a misunderstanding due to careless reading on my part.

I agree with you that divorce is not the will of God. There is a difference between what is permissible and what is desired, and God clearly has designed marriage to be between one man and one woman for life. Matthew’s is not permission to divorce but rather a statement that one who does put away his wife for reasons of fornication is not guilty of adultery if he remarries. Divorce is always a product of a heart which is hardened or resistant, to an extent, to God.

Paul’s command from the God in 1 Cor. 7:10 agrees with Matthew’s record of Jesus’ teaching. God commands that the wife should not leave her husband – but if she does she is to remain unmarried or reconciled back to her husband. And the husband should likewise not heave his wife.

And Paul’s personal advice, the application of this to the life of the believer who finds him or herself unequally yoked, agrees with God’s command. It is as if Paul is speaking pastorally. The believing partner is not to divorce the unbelieving spouse. But if the unbelieving partner leaves the believer, then the believer is no longer under bondage.

The question, then, is if this “bondage” is a release from the marriage vows and freedom to remarry. Paul’s application could be seen as nullifying the marriage and allowing the believer to remarry or it could be seen as freeing the believer from those bonds of marriage (they are no longer yoked to the unbeliever). But I believe that Paul is speaking within the bounds already given.

In Matthew 19, after Jesus’ words to the Pharisees on marriage, his disciples say “If the relationship of a man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry.” Jesus response? "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."

It seems (to me) that Paul is telling the believer that he or she is no longer bound to the unbelieving spouse who leaves. They are no longer yoked, no longer "one". There no longer exists a responsibility or accountability for the other. Paul is not giving permission to remarry in this passage.

The truth is also that Pauls instructions and viewpoint on his issue are just as authoritarian as if Jesus Himself spoke them!

 

[JonC]

The truth is also that Pauls instructions and viewpoint on his issue are just as authoritarian as if Jesus Himself spoke them!

I do not believe that Paul's comments, where he specifically states that his words are not a command from God, can be viewed as being such. For example, Paul said that it was of his opinion that a man remain single. If this is viewed as a command (that it is if Jesus Himself believes men should remain single) we have an issue.

Paul's comments were never meant to be a legalistic formula for life. Instead he seems very much to desire that the believer be unencumbered by the things of the flesh so that he or she will be fully devoted to the Kingdom of God We are bound, as long as we live, to our spouses. But if we are widowed the we can remarry a believer. Paul says he believes it would be best to remain single.

But apart from those very few instances where Paul states he is not writing Scripture (of God) but of his own view, then yes....Scripture is Scripture. God's Word is no less coming from Paul than from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, or Peter.

 

[John Toppass]

I do not believe that Paul's comments, where he specifically states that his words are not a command from God, can be viewed as being such. For example, Paul said that it was of his opinion that a man remain single. If this is viewed as a command (that it is if Jesus Himself believes men should remain single) we have an issue.

Paul's comments were never meant to be a legalistic formula for life. Instead he seems very much to desire that the believer be unencumbered by the things of the flesh so that he or she will be fully devoted to the Kingdom of God We are bound, as long as we live, to our spouses. But if we are widowed the we can remarry a believer. Paul says he believes it would be best to remain single.

But apart from those very few instances where Paul states he is not writing Scripture (of God) but of his own view, then yes....Scripture is Scripture. God's Word is no less coming from Paul than from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, or Peter.

I can and do agree. I will ad that no where do I find that God approves of divorce and remarrying another. The only "biblical divorce" is that caused by the hardening of the heart and if it is the unbeliever that divorces the believer, then the believer is not under bondage for the unbelievers actions.
Let me also ad, that I believe no one should accept abuse for the sake of the marriage. I believe God does not give permission for any divorce but God does forgive when asked. While under the circumstance of the unequal yolk there is no bondage if the believer remarries then they do become the spouse of more than one. (unless the original spouse has passed)

 

[Yeshua1]

I do not believe that Paul's comments, where he specifically states that his words are not a command from God, can be viewed as being such. For example, Paul said that it was of his opinion that a man remain single. If this is viewed as a command (that it is if Jesus Himself believes men should remain single) we have an issue.

Paul's comments were never meant to be a legalistic formula for life. Instead he seems very much to desire that the believer be unencumbered by the things of the flesh so that he or she will be fully devoted to the Kingdom of God We are bound, as long as we live, to our spouses. But if we are widowed the we can remarry a believer. Paul says he believes it would be best to remain single.

But apart from those very few instances where Paul states he is not writing Scripture (of God) but of his own view, then yes....Scripture is Scripture. God's Word is no less coming from Paul than from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, or Peter.

When Paul address spiritual isses, ad hestatesthat hehd nothing from Jesu ever saying anything, but tis is his opinion, andhethinksthat he had themindof God, di he not?Was tat not inspired from theHoly Spiirit?
And Paul remarks concernin singles being more bless if in gift of celibacy was inspired, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

I can and do agree. I will ad that no where do I find that God approves of divorce and remarrying another. The only "biblical divorce" is that caused by the hardening of the heart and if it is the unbeliever that divorces the believer, then the believer is not under bondage for the unbelievers actions.
Let me also ad, that I believe no one should accept abuse for the sake of the marriage. I believe God does not give permission for any divorce but God does forgive when asked. While under the circumstance of the unequal yolk there is no bondage if the believer remarries then they do become the spouse of more than one. (unless the original spouse has passed)

God does allow for divorce for desertion/adultary though, and injured party free to remarry in the Lord!
Per Apostle Paul...

 

[JonC]

When Paul address spiritual isses, ad hestatesthat hehd nothing from Jesu ever saying anything, but tis is his opinion, andhethinksthat he had themindof God, di he not?Was tat not inspired from theHoly Spiirit?
And Paul remarks concernin singles being more bless if in gift of celibacy was inspired, correct?

No, I don't think so. When Paul spoke of having that mind of Christ I think he was speaking of spiritual things (not necessarily detailed revelations of how Scripture is applied).

The reason I say this is that if Paul was issuing a command from a position of authority, he would not have specified what was a command from God and what was his own view. But more than that, if Paul's words were to be obeyed as if they were spoken by Jesus .... and the church obeyed... then the church would have died out after two generations. Paul's words are to be taken, I believe, within the context of his understanding that Christ was to return soon. Still, his words have application in terms of priority.

 

[Yeshua1]

No, I don't think so. When Paul spoke of having that mind of Christ I think he was speaking of spiritual things (not necessarily detailed revelations of how Scripture is applied).

The reason I say this is that if Paul was issuing a command from a position of authority, he would not have specified what was a command from God and what was his own view. But more than that, if Paul's words were to be obeyed as if they were spoken by Jesus .... and the church obeyed... then the church would have died out after two generations. Paul's words are to be taken, I believe, within the context of his understanding that Christ was to return soon. Still, his words have application in terms of priority.

He stated that it was given to that specii situation, so as a"word from the Lord"

What sayings of Paul would you say were not inspired ad o not authotative to us now then?

 

[JonC]

He stated that it was given to that specii situation, so as a"word from the Lord"

What sayings of Paul would you say were not inspired ad o not authotative to us now then?

1 Corinthians 7:5-13

1, I believe that Paul is saying this by way of concession and not of command:

But this I say by way of concession, not of command. Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

2, I believe Paul is giving this instruction as a command from God:

But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

3. I believe this is of Paul, and not the Lord:

But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

 

[Yeshua1]

1 Corinthians 7:5-13

1, I believe that Paul is saying this by way of concession and not of command:

But this I say by way of concession, not of command. Yet I wish that all men were even as I myself am. However, each man has his own gift from God, one in this manner, and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

2, I believe Paul is giving this instruction as a command from God:

But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

3. I believe this is of Paul, and not the Lord:

But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

Except that the Lord already had givn his views in the Gospels as regarding how God viewed Marriage, and God was thru Paul now extending His views unto this situation between saved/unsaved.

 

[JonC]

Except that the Lord already had givn his views in the Gospels as regarding how God viewed Marriage, and God was thru Paul now extending His views unto this situation between saved/unsaved.

I look at it this way....if Paul's words here were as if Jesus was speaking through him and authoritative, then when he said that it was from him and not the Lord we can take that as truth.

Paul was applying his understanding and experience to the single believer when he said that he believed it best they did not marry. He was not saying that Jesus commands that they not marry. Then Paul states a command of God regarding divorce....that we don't do it. And then Paul gives his view on those "unequally yoked" but who's unbelieving spouse leaves them.

I do not understand why this is a difficult passage. Paul specifically says what is a command from God and what is his own assessment. He even provides an "out" in for those who don't remain single. And in the last part, nothing he says contradicts Jesus commandments. I don't get the difficulty here. Paul is applying what has been commanded (Christians don't divorce) and offering his view that if the unbeliever leaves the Christian is not "bound".

 

[JonShaff]

I look at it this way....if Paul's words here were as if Jesus was speaking through him and authoritative, then when he said that it was from him and not the Lord we can take that as truth.

Paul was applying his understanding and experience to the single believer when he said that he believed it best they did not marry. He was not saying that Jesus commands that they not marry.

I believe there is a hidden nugget in this passage as to why it wasn't best to marry...

1 Corinthians 7
26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

Some may take this (The Present Distress) as "the situation at hand", but i believe he is talking about a broader reality...the fact that Christians are getting murdered left and right, people are fleeing, Rome and the unbelieving Jews are on a rampage. For the current climate of Christian Culture, it's best for you not to marry...That's what i believe Paul is saying. IMO.

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe there is a hidden nugget in this passage as why it wasn't best to marry...

1 Corinthians 7
26 I suppose therefore that this is good for the present distress, I say, that it is good for a man so to be.

Some may take this is "the situation at hand", but i believe he is talking about a broader reality...the fact that Christians are getting murdered left and right, people are fleeing, Rome and the unbelieving Jews are on a rampage. For the current climate of Christian Culture, it's best for you not to marry...That's what i believe Paul is saying. IMO.

That makes sense, as he would be addressing current situation, same way the thing about woman wearing dressings over heads, and hair lenght fo men/women being local customs.
When paul spoke on marriages and remarriage though, think was for all times...

 

[John Toppass]

God does allow for divorce for desertion/adultary though, and injured party free to remarry in the Lord!
Per Apostle Paul...

Where do you read this, without twisting and taking the scripture out of context?

 

[Yeshua1]

Where do you read this, without twisting and taking the scripture out of context?

15 But if the unbeliever departs, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases. But God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?