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How To Be Born Again

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
That help has been provided. Salvation is an accomplished work. Believe is all that is required of us.
True belief changes the way you live. Head knowledge without personal acceptance is nothing.
Now right here is indeed the difference. This is what Leighton Flowers is popularizing in his "Provisionism" Youtube site. Christ doing his work and providing the means for you to be saved is not all the help we need. Once again you have that John 3:6-8 which is simply there. I do believe that we should indeed be able to on our own, look at the gospel propositions and choose to repent and come to Christ. But the facts, and the scripture, indicates more is going on. If you pray for someone who has heard the gospel to be saved you are acknowledging that you want the Spirit to influence them or change them in some way to make them come to Christ, are you not? You are not wanting to respect their free will and leave them alone to their own pathway. You couldn't care less that salvation has been sufficiently provided and now it's up to them. You want God to shake 'em up somehow, convict, strike down, or flat out give them a new birth but the point is you want them to have way more than a provision of the means of salvation.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
You choose your battles wisely. What are you going to get from the discussion and can you part way friends?
I don’t see why people don’t part friends.
We are called to "Look and Live," to "Repent and Believe" to "call upon the name of the Lord" and so forth. What brings you to this point?
Well, I was born physically. God gives that life also. How much do you want to know?
But being brought to that point doesn’t automatically mean crossing from death to life. It doesn’t matter much how you get to the ferry. You will never cross if you don’t trust the ferry to take you. And you aren’t trusting if you haven’t come yourself, into the ferry.

Are you saying you are saved because you had the "Good common sense to believe?" Does this mean you are "better" than the person who refuses to believe?
You are the one who keeps trying to put the words in my mouth.
I have not and do not say it. I’m more convinced that Calvinists think that way. They are the people who say it all the time. They can’t seem to let people be judged by their own words and must teach people how to oppose them so that that can then handle the low hanging fruit.
It’s not impressive. It doesn’t help my opinion of your knowledge.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
Now right here is indeed the difference. This is what Leighton Flowers is popularizing in his "Provisionism" Youtube site. Christ doing his work and providing the means for you to be saved is not all the help we need. Once again you have that John 3:6-8 which is simply there. I do believe that we should indeed be able to on our own, look at the gospel propositions and choose to repent and come to Christ. But the facts, and the scripture, indicates more is going on. If you pray for someone who has heard the gospel to be saved you are acknowledging that you want the Spirit to influence them or change them in some way to make them come to Christ, are you not? You are not wanting to respect their free will and leave them alone to their own pathway. You couldn't care less that salvation has been sufficiently provided and now it's up to them. You want God to shake 'em up somehow, convict, strike down, or flat out give them a new birth but the point is you want them to have way more than a provision of the means of salvation.
All of the rest of what you are saying is not outside of provisionism. Everything that is necessary for salvation is provided for. That is the definition of provisionism.
 

Ben1445

Well-Known Member
I clearly said above that we should be and can be held responsible for our sin in our natural state and the only thing making us sin is our own wills in full control. I have gone as far as you do in assigning personal responsibility. We are totally responsible for what we do.

I do not think the same is equally true when it comes to changing for the better and believing the gospel.
And herein lies the difference.
It is not as though by believing the gospel you have invented it or made a way of salvation. By saying that people believe the gospel, you have an intrinsic understanding that salvation exists outside of the individual.

And I can tell you that Calvinists, Arminians, Regular Baptists, and free will Baptists all believe that too. The only difference is in the resistibility of the grace given to us and in the selectivity of the grace given.
As if we were given different resistors and capacitors like a circuit board. We are not merely hardware or we are not discussing anything more than fatalism. The idea that we have already been given circumstances that force us into making decisions predetermined as we live out nothing better than a simulation.

But that aside, John 3:6-8, if glossed over, leaves you totally in charge of your salvation in a way that doesn't fit with what those verses say. Especially in light of the fact that Jesus seemed astounded at the ignorance of Nicodemus who was an expert in theology and scripture and yet seemed himself to be in need of supernatural help. Don't make too much of it as I think we are basically on the same page.
I think we are not too far apart.
 

Armchair Apologist

Active Member
Apparently you are saying that the Holy Spirit is slacking on behalf of some people.
I am saying that God is sovereign over whom he saves - Rom 9:15
I have never talked about my abilities to persuade them. You have lost your way in this conversation.
Perhaps I was not talking about you then. There are, in fact, those who believe that with the right methodology, you can persuade anyone to be saved. The most notable example of this is Charles Finney who is regarded by many to be the patron saint of "Modern Evangelism!" You do not have to be a Calvinist in order to disagree with such a mindset and I hope this would be one area in which we could agree.
Have you never read that men resist the Holy Spirit?
All the time. An unregenerate man will always resist the Holy Spirit. He will always spurn the "Common Grace" that has been bestowed upon him.
Have you never read that we are commanded to not quench the Spirit?
First of all, Paul is addressing the Church at Thessalonica (believers)
Why is it that these things are so, if we have no ability to resist the grace of God? Or what are we resisting if we can’t resist the Holy Spirit?
Perhaps you should go back and study the Calvinist position on "Irresistable Grace." I do not think it means what you think it means.

Irresistable grace is efficacious (saving) grace AKA "regeneration" or the actual point at which one passes from death to life! A dead man will pass up a medium-rare T-Bone Steak. A Baptist (who is very much alive) will find such to be quite irresistable!:Cool
I can’t speak for others, but I certainly am aware of the Holy Spirit working in my life. Nothing mystical or weird, but there is no mistaking His working for someone else.
We may be able to see outward signs that a man is "under conviction" or whatever. They may be quite attentive and actually express concern over the condition of their eternal soul. You may speak to this person a couple of days later and they are cold as ice and have no interest in you or the gospel you are preaching! What happened?

On the contrary, you could be dealing with some "Outlaw Biker" somewhere who pulls a knife and threatens to "slice you up" if you do not stop preaching to him or his buddies! Perhaps a few years later, you find out this very same "outlaw biker" has graduated from seminary and is preaching a revival service across town, sees you and nearly kills you with a big ol bear hug!

Fact of the matter is we haven't the slightest clue who "God's Elect" are!

And again, you do not have to be a "Calvinist" in order to say "AMEN" to this!
What makes you think He never does for some people?
What about those who live and die and have never had the chance to hear the gospel message preached? What about those on North Sentinel Island who will kill anyone who tries to get in contact with them?
 

DaveXR650

Well-Known Member
I think we are not too far apart.
I agree. I think that what happens with theology is that it can state a truth but not always integrate it with other truth. Your perception of being saved is indeed that you hear the gospel and then you decide to come to Christ and believe. That really is what you do. But then, as Spurgeon said, you start reading scripture and thinking about why you did that and you realize God was working on you. C.S. Lewis said the same thing in that as he searched for God it turned out that in reality it was God who was pursuing him.
 

kyredneck

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
But that aside, John 3:6-8, if glossed over, leaves you totally in charge of your salvation in a way that doesn't fit with what those verses say.

Jn 3:6-8 is only the tip of the iceberg of scripture that the 'anti-Cals' gloss over.

Jesus seemed astounded at the ignorance of Nicodemus who was an expert in theology and scripture and yet seemed himself to be in need of supernatural help.

Nicodemus's non-enlightenment should not affect the correct rendering of Christ's intent with the word 'anothen' here. Anothen ( from above, from a higher place, of things which come from heaven or God, from the first, from the beginning, from the very first, anew, over again) can mean 'anew' or 'over again', but that's not what Christ meant, thus His further explanation in the next verse:

5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 1 YLT

Christ wasn't speaking of an earthly physical birth which Nicodemus wrongly perceived, He was speaking of a spiritual birth FROM ABOVE.

"Born from above" syncs with a large amount of other scripture, old and new, and is consistent with the apostle John's (James also) intended use of the word anothen:

3 Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;' (YLT)
7 'Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above; (YLT)
31 He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly , and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. Jn 3

11 Jesus answered , Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
23 Then the soldiers, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments, and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also his coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout . Jn 19

As is the case with James:

17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Ja 1

15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure , then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. Ja 3

YLT conveys a 'celestial motif' in the dialogue (yea, the entire chapter) between Christ and Nicodemus that the rendering 'born again' misses:

2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.`
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;`
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
21 but he who is doing the truth doth come to the light, that his works may be manifested, that in God they are having been wrought.`
27 John answered and said, `A man is not able to receive anything, if it may not have been given him from the heaven
31 he who from above is coming is above all; he who is from the earth, from the earth he is, and from the earth he speaketh; he who from the heaven is coming is above all. Jn 3 YLT

Born again, or born anew gives all you free willer enemies of sovereign grace that have confidence in the flesh 'wiggle room' to lay claim or take credit for something you had zilch to do with. You were 100% totally passive in the birth from above:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1
 
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Armchair Apologist

Active Member
I don’t see why people don’t part friends.
So long as things remain amicable, we can have a good discussion even if we disagree.
Well, I was born physically. God gives that life also. How much do you want to know?
Did you ask to be born? Are you resentful of the fact that you didn't give consent for your own birth?
But now that you are born, do you not have the desire to live?
How is any of this different from the new birth?
But being brought to that point doesn’t automatically mean crossing from death to life. It doesn’t matter much how you get to the ferry. You will never cross if you don’t trust the ferry to take you. And you aren’t trusting if you haven’t come yourself, into the ferry.
It is God who gives one sight, who grants repentance and faith unto salvation. God is the one who puts all the pieces together to where everything makes sense. The new birth is a supernatural occurrence and is completely from God!
You are the one who keeps trying to put the words in my mouth.
I have not and do not say it. I’m more convinced that Calvinists think that way. They are the people who say it all the time. They can’t seem to let people be judged by their own words and must teach people how to oppose them so that that can then handle the low hanging fruit.
It’s not impressive. It doesn’t help my opinion of your knowledge.
Not really. I do not think you would actually believe you are saved because of anything you have done, because you were smarter and had the good common sense to believe the gospel or whatever!
 
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