How to convince a Christian to vote 3rd party?

[amittai]

If you haven't already get Peroutka Campaign Volume 1 DVD and watch 'One Million Lawyers' where he talks about the presuppositions of American govt. A must watch and some great thoughts.

From some of the things he said I have come up with some thoughts about convincing Christians to consider a 3rd party vote.

We can each argue evidence.
We can each find & provide evidence that supports our viewpoint.
Yet few minds are changed in the arguments of evidence. Why is this?

It is a rather simple matter really...
It is because in many cases we fail to debate the presuppositions.
'Evidence is wholly insignificant when compared to presuppositions.' (Peroutka quote)

The presupposition is the thing we take as 'given' before we even start the argument. It is what we already believe when we come to the table to have the debate. It is what I presuppose to be true BEFORE I listen to the evidence of another. It is what I ALREADY hold as true concerning my faith, my country, my party or a political figure, personality or current event etc.

As such in my discussions with others I have formulated the following argument to challenge the presupposition of many Christians that:
President Bush is a man of my faith... and
Voting for President Bush supports the Kingdom of God.

I have tried to do this in a way that is fully respectful of the President and does not judge the person (Matt 7:1-5).. but only asks if the words and actions he has taken are good fruit (Matt 7:13-20) The argument does not force anyone to take my version of the truth since all questions are true/false and can be answered however the test taker chooses. It also leaves the final decision to the reader (The 50th step is yours alone) which hopefully gives the Holy Spirit a little room to do some convincing where I am sure to fail.

Here is the link...
http://www.supercal.com/amittai/49steps.asp?s=bbb

I have had some conversions via this doc and will be interested to here any thoughts or feedback. Thanks.

 

[Pastor Larry]

A lot of us don't believe that Bush is completely striaght on his faith. I don't know. I saw again on Frontline two nights ago some things about his faith where he was very straightforward about what he believed, and was more orthodox than even Billy Graham. But that is irrelevant.

The US government is not going to bring the kingdom of God in. But electing the right kind of people can help to delay the problems. In this election year, there is only one man who can help delay the problems ... and that is Bush. While you might like a third party candidate, they are not electable. The last thrid party candidate that was viable was Ross Perot who only got 20% of the vote and gave us the first four years of Bill Clinton. With all of his money and with the tremendous media push behind him, he failed very badly in the presidential run. Peroutka has neither the money, nor the media. He is not even showing up in polls. That's how unserious his candidacy is.

BTW, your questions are very misleading and designed to point to one conclusion, namely yours.

To convince this Christian to vote third party, you are going to have to provide a viable candidate.

 

[Gina B]

Pastor Larry, I think the majority of those who refuse to vote third party do so simply because they ARE third party.
Would you honestly have voted for Bush in the last election if he had been a 3rd party candidate, or even in this election?
Gina

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

In order to convince me that voting for a third party candidate like Peroutka is the way to go, you are going to have to do the following:

1. Produce a candidate who has some political experience and name recognition who has a chance to win.

2. Convince me that by casting my vote for Peroutka, I won't be helping to elect Kerry.

3. Stop with the silliness of trying to say that Bush is more liberal than Kerry and Clinton. Nobody really believes that. It is just slanderous rhetoric.

4. Convince me that Peroutka is not going to give another victory to Al Quaeda and other Islamic terror groups as Spain did by pulling our troops out of the Middle East before we win the war, and consequently, present our nation as weak to our enemies inviting them to do to us what they have done to Israel on a weekly or daily basis.

5. Convince me that under our Contitutional form of government, that Peroutka can wave his Constitutional magic wand and end all abortions tommorow without being shot down by Congress and the Supreme Court.

6. Convince me that Peroutka isn't just a political idealist who really has no idea about how things really work in Washington politics.

If you can do all 6 of these things, I would seriously consider voting for him. But, as it stands, I am doubtful that you can. Go ahead. Prove me wrong. Convince me.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
4. Convince me that Peroutka is not going to give another victory to Al Quaeda and other Islamic terror groups as Spain did by pulling our troops out of the Middle East before we win the war, and consequently, present our nation as weak to our enemies inviting them to do to us what they have done to Israel on a weekly or daily basis.

Michael Peroutka will work to protect our borders from illegal immigrants(including terrorists) as shown by the fact that organizations and people who want to see our borders protected are supporting him. Does anyone really believe that the Demopublicans, led by President Bush and Senator Kerry, are going to work to stop illegal immigration and work to deport those illegal immigrants already here? Their past records and statements indicate that they will not.

 

[Gina B]

Joseph, aren't we pulling out anyhow, at least symbolically within a few weeks as we hand power back over to the Iraqis?
As far as the rest of your reasons, it's a good thing people don't choose religion the same way! They simply go with the right one...
Gina

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Please name one attack on this country on our soil since 9-11. I disagree with Bush's immigration policy and have stated so publicly in the past. But I strongly disagree even more with giving Al Queda and other terror groups another victory by electing someone who will pull our troops out before we defeat the enemy. Take a good look at what is going on in Israel, because that is exactly what will be happening here if we follow that course of action.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
But I strongly disagree even more with giving Al Queda and other terror groups another victory by electing someone who will pull our troops out before we defeat the enemy.

I submit that President Bush is now looking for an exit strategy in Iraq, not a victory strategy. And I believe we will see that in his speech this coming Monday.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by Gina L:
Joseph, aren't we pulling out anyhow, at least symbolically within a few weeks as we hand power back over to the Iraqis?

We are moving toward incorporating their own self governing democracy (far cry from the accusations of imperialism and blood for oil that have been irresponsibly leveled against America by those who oppose the war, isn't it). Our troops will remain for a good long time until we establish order and defeat the enemy. This will not happen under Peroutka. He has even said as much.

As far as the rest of your reasons, it's a good thing people don't choose religion the same way![/QUOTE]

I don't look at my political affiliation as my religion. Is that the way Constitutionalist view their party; as a religion. I would say that this is yet one more reason for me as a Christian to not be involved with the CP.

They simply go with the right one...
Gina [/QUOTE]

I believe I have chosen the right candidate. Prove me wrong. Convince me of those 6 things I mentioned above. If you can't, then this conversation is really fruitless.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
Our troops will remain for a good long time until we establish order and defeat the enemy.

I submit that regardless of who is president, that all U.S. troops will be out of Iraq by the end of June 2006.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

According to Peroutka's website, he will pull all America troops out immediately. If he is telling the truth there, then he is either contradicting your idea or he is very naive about how things work in the world.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[KenH]

Obviously, there are logistics involved in pulling out 135,000 troops. Thus, immediately would not mean on January 20 or 21, 2005.

 

[amittai]

President Bush has an interesting dichotomy in his faith statements which can be researched. Pre-1998 all of his statements are Christ-alone. Post 1998 and entry to presidential politics and since he has been inter-faith. You can research this if you would like regarding Foxman and the ADL (1998) and their concerns about Bush's 'Jesus only' statements. What did Governor Bush did to appease this concern?

I taped the PBS special Thurs night. It is an interesting piece to analyse.

My experience with talking with Christians about President Bush is that he tends to divide them. This concerns me. Much of what he speaks is simply biblically inaccurate as far as affirming and participating in rituals and practices of other faiths and proclaiming the broad way to heaven as those of the inter-faith movement do. Universalism is not biblical. This is not helpful to the cause of the kingdom and is confusing to secular people who already have a hard enough time understanding their own sinfulness and need of Christ without offering them Door # 2 and Door # 3.

It is interesting to hear people of God who are concerned about viability of candidates and having enough money and media to succeed. Sometimes I wonder if they are reading the same Bible that I am. God has always used the weak things of the world to put to shame the strong. Shall we fear Kerry more than God? Many would admit Bush is sadly lacking, or that they are uncomfortable with things they see and hear in the news everyday, but they have no faith to put that belief into action. That is not my view of God and I will hallow His name with my vote, for I will stand before him at the judgement.

The questions are all true/false. You are free to answer each however you would like under the leading of the Holy Spirit. I am comfortable leaving you to whatever answer he leads you to and I don't think He will mislead you so I don't understand your discomfort. If something has been said... and I link to an article that verifies it... well then yes a conclusion is pointed to if you are willing to give credit to the source where the information is reported. If there are issues that are concerning, then perhaps you will want to research the issue for yourself. That is your privilege.

Nowhere in the 49 steps have I stated my conclusions to each question. I struggle with some of the questions myself. That does not mean that we as the body of Christ should not examine the fruit and try to discern what is true, and ask ourselves difficult questions.

In some respects I honestly could care less who 'wins' the election. Elections will come and go as they always have. As far as my faith goes however, I would defend it if there were no election for the next 1000 years. I will stand to defend God's glory from those whose words and actions make him less than what He is.

My concern is that the defense of my faith has become so political. Perhaps moreso than one would expect in America. Why does it seem so many Christians are more concerned about the war in Iraq than the war for the souls of men? Which of these will weigh more when we vote?

It is not my job to convince you how to vote or who is viable. I will respect you Pastor Larry. All I ask is that you consider the cause of Christ and his kingdom. Whatever choice you make will be ok with me.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Probably not, because he likely would not have the support to win a race. In politics, there is idealism and there is reality. The reality is where we have to live. The reality is that there is no perfect candidate. So, in all questions, we are dealing with a mixture of views and electability.

To use an analogy, I am offering a free car to all who can get to my house by 6:15 this evening. IT is a real offer. IF you can get there, I will give you a free car. But is that a legitimate possibility? Of course not, since it is not 6:00 and no one knows where I live. Peroutka running for president is like me giving a car. It is a real offer. It is simply useless at this point.

Electability is the real world that we have to live in, not the ideal. I love the ideal, but it's not real. There is a degree to which wisdom demands that we give up the ideal so as not to make the real worse.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I am very concerned about the cause of Christ and his kingdom. BUt we am not electing a theologian in chief. The US will not bring in the kingdom. Only Christ will do that.

As for Bush's faith, I cannot be certain. I heard again his remarks from the debate about Christ as his Savior. What a bold statement, matter of fact, and genuine. I think even Alan Keyes was impressed by that. Bush is certainly not well taught though. Whether or not he has thought through all of the interfaith issues is not my call. I simply don't know. I am not voting for him becuase of his Christian faith (real or not). I am, as of now, voting for him because he is the best viable candidate. I wish there was another. There is not.

The "weak things of the world" argument doesn't fit here. That is about the gospel and salvation. It is not about politics. We should not confuse the two.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by KenH:
Obviously, there are logistics involved in pulling out 135,000 troops. Thus, immediately would not mean on January 20 or 21, 2005.

I wonder how many troops can be hauled home on one C-130J. I wonder how many 130's we have right here at good ole LRAFB. I know there are a lot of them. I don't think it would take as long as you are thinking Ken. Ever been inside a C-5. Those things are enormous. I bet if Peroutka really wanted to, he could pull it off a lot quicker than you are thinking.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
According to Peroutka's website, he will pull all America troops out immediately.

I stated that I believe whomever is president will pull all of our troops out of Iraq by the end of June 2005. That does not mean it might not happen sooner.

I think if President Bush could have his druthers considering how things are going, that he would like to see all of our troops out of Iraq by November 2, 2004, to help his reelection bid.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
I bet if Peroutka really wanted to, he could pull it off a lot quicker than you are thinking.

I hope Michael Peroutka becomes president on January 20, 2005, so we can find out.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
There is a degree to which wisdom demands that we give up the ideal so as not to make the real worse.

But does that mean we must do, as I believe you are advocating, that we should vote for Socialist A because you believe he is not quite as socialistic as Socialist B?

 

[Daniel David]

If you want Christians to vote for Peroutka, you will need to remove the brain from every Christian's melon prior to the election. Then you will need to put a pen in our hands and lead us to the ballot to help us mark it.

Sincerely,

a Christian who isn't duped by the idea that the United States is to usher in the Kingdom of God.