How to defeat the EIREITAD heresy!

It's not so much the idea of reward/punishment in this life or at the JSOC or at the final judgement that is hard for me to accept. It's the idea of a 1000 year purgatory that is a scriptural stretch. I think you have to do some scriptural acrobatics to get that.

Of course, you're going to have a hard time convincing those of us that believe in the P of the TULIP that some believers, indwelled by the Holy Spirit and predestinated to be conformed to the image of His son, will not preservere in the faith by which they are saved.

 

Then that would be punitive, not chastizing. That would be mOria.

 

Well, to start off with, "purgatory" is something that is used by those who try to "defend" themselves by being disengenuous. Let's look at a simple definition of the word:

"A condition or place in which the souls of those dying penitent are purified from venial sins, or undergo the temporal punishment that, after the guilt of mortal sin has been remitted, still remains to be endured by the sinner."

First of all, modern Catholics, like much of Christendom, fail to distinguish between the soul and the spirit. Most Catholics view purgatory as a place for unsaved people who can get prayed into heaven, or people who have lost their salvation.

But, if a person is "penitent", he is forgiven. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. (But, if we don't confess our sins, he is still faithful and just.)

Confessed sin is gone!

But, we are held accountable for our actions.

Now, unlike the lies that npetreley spreads, no one here has said that you're either ruling and reigning or in hell. Many are called; few are called out. The vast majority will simply be there. A few will be ruling and reigning. This is in reference to the coming Millennial Kingdom. It's 1,000 years in length.

Our spiritual salvation is secure. If we can become unborn into the family, then God is a liar.

But, there re saved individuals who are given warnings about gehenna in Matthew 5. This is part of the Sermon on the Mount. It's given to saved people. Disciples. (I think it also has to do with the tribulation, with the "right eye", "right hand" thing, and the mark of the beast, but that's another discussion.)

I was raised equating "hell" with "the lake of fire". Once I realized that there is not a single shred of evidence for this, and realized that the KJV has translated four different words as "hell", it was easy.

First of all, if "hell" is the lake of fire, we're all in trouble! We're all going there! Two of the words translated as "hell" are simply the grave; the place of the dead, both good and bad. (Not a tomb, but the unseen world of the dead.)

Another word translated as "hell" is related only to angels and being bound.

Gehenna is the other one. The lake of fire is literal. It's a real place, and people will really be sent there. Gehenna is figurative. It was real once, but try to find it today.

The gehenna warnings are given to saved people. So, either people can become unsaved, or it's a temporal warning.

Matthew 25 tells us that the goats and sheep are separated. We're told in Scriptures that both are clean animals (hence, he is the Lamb of God), and this is a judgment of works. In the end, the ones without the good works are sent to aionian chatizement. If aionian anything is forever and ever, then most of us are in real trouble, too.

But, the issue is that these are saved people sent to chastizement. If it's forever, then you can become unsaved. If you can't become unsaved, then what is this chastizement?

I was going to say more, as well as comment on "reward" in the negative, but I was asked to participate in the art show at the state fair, which leaves me 3 days to do a week's worth of work. I'm tired.

 

Lacy, God is not mocked (even by you). Whatsoever you reap, you will sow -- flesh to flesh, or in your case, spirit to spirit.

You are getting so much resistance from fellow Christians because you and ME-er's are out of line spiritually. You can't be completely satisfied with your doctrine because it doesn't all fit together without making the same error as the Catholics.

And bye-and-bye you are going to give up on the truth and live a soured life full of fear that, if you are honest with yourself, you are going to go to that "1000 year hell" you warned everyone else about. Cause how can you know you haven't "crossed the line?"

skypair

 

Skypair that Scripture has to do with judgment day, not during this lifetime! Now I agree with you that our unconfessed sins can have an impact on our existence now, but to think that if you go through life in active rebellion against God that He is going to somehow sweep that rebellion under the carpet when you stand before His Judge on that day you are fooling yourself. And unfortunately MANY saved people are fooling themselves into believing the same thing.

If you are a rebel here that doesn't go away just because you died.

Yes thinking that you will not be held accountable at the JSOC is VERY dangerous.

Sorry but that text doesn't say "in this life" that is "your" words not the words of Scripture.

It's called wages! You will receive just recompense for what you have done in this body whether good or bad. That's just plainly what the Scriptures teach. We can either believe that and ajust our lives accordingly or we can continue on with church tradition thinking everyone is going to be okay on that day and that day will overtake us like a thief in the night.

It is your soul that is on the line not your flesh. But we've already discussed the soul and the spirit so there is no need to go into that again.

And just because Christ died for your sins does not mean that you have accepted His blood to cover you. ALL sins are not forgiven when we are saved. That is another church tradition that does not stand up to the test of Scripture. Future sins must be dealt with as they come up. If they were already forgiven at the point of our everlasting life salvation then there would be no need to confess that which has already been forgiven. That's simply logically incorrect any way you slice it.

Well this statement says either one you don't yet understand what we are talking about or two you do and you are turning into one of those people that just out and out lies about us to try and prove yourself correct.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are in the first category, because that is NOT what we believe! Without Jesus the Lamb of God and The Christ we are NOTHING!

 

I'm not following your reasoning...

 

That is the way YOU read it. Let's just read the context, OK?

Gal 6 -- "7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the FLESH reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting." Are you seriously saying that resurrected, glorified flesh is going to be corrupted?? NO! We reap to the flesh we have now or REWARDS to the spirit in the "everlasting."

Um, going through life in rebellion against God is called "lost" -- unsaved.

On the other hand, how perfect do you suppose a person must be to avoid 1000 years of hell, JJ?? Basically you are measuring by the standard of men.

Again, you are talking about one who was never saved. But if you think people don't have problems with the flesh after they are saved (as apparently you DON'T), you are "saving" people by how good or how bad they are.

Again, study the context, friend. I add the words for your help in understanding the truth.

Oh really! So you apparently have stricken Rom 8:33-36 from your Bible? "33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

That is tradition with basis in scripture -- else we Christiains wouldn't be here trying to straighten you out.

Yeah, here on earth.

That is where your mistaken, JJ. Let's say I'm your boss and you offend me. Do you think you BETTER confess and ask forgiveness or suffer consequences?? It's that same application with God -- here and now consequences.

Let me ask you -- are you "fessed up" with others? with us? This doctrine of yours is absolutely terribly wrong headed. You're like Catholic or Mormon or some such that think Christ didn't pay it all. couldn't have meant "It is finished!"

That's simply logically incorrect any way you slice it.

skypair

 

HoG --- the context is the parable of the judgment of sheep and goats, Gentile believers and unbelievers. By what pretext do you make both sheep and goats out as both believers??? Do you not know what is going to happen when Christ returns??

Look at Mt 13:37-49 for the parallel.

But primarily, NO church age believers will be at these judgments anyway. Do you not know that we will be raptured before them? EVERY eschatological construct of these judgments has the church missing them. Your theology is fatally -- I mean FATALLY flawed!

skypair

 

Hate to "burst your bubble" but you now are talking about people judged DURING THE MK! Probably they'll burn in the literal "Gehenna" just outside Jerusalem per Isa 66:24 as we have already discussed. But listen: "But ... whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. 23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;..." Where is there an "altar" today? There isn't one. The "altar" is in the Jerusalem temple during the MK while Jesus is King of all the earth. Much of Mt 5-7 is "Kingdom" oriented like your ME beliefs, but again, this does not apply now nor to the church who has no altar.

Where?

OR you could have the whole wrong people in view.

Sounds like fun! What medium of art?

skypair

 

ME-ers,

Do you all believe in the rapture (1Cor 15:50-52, 1Thes 4:16-17, John 14:1-4)??

You know --- the church changed into bodies of celetial glory like Christ's ("Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1John 3:2) and taken up to the air and then to heaven?

skypair

 

Now there is the pot calling the kettle black. Did you actually make fun of his avatar? Your picture is quite appropriate also. Ghosts, especially friendly ghosts, are not real, which matches a lot of your theology. On the other hand, your avatar is not like your posts. Remember, I said friendly ghost.

 

1Therefore there is now no (A)condemnation for those who are (B)in (C)Christ Jesus. Romans 8:1 (NASB)

Just my opinion, but 1000 years in hell sounds like condemnation!

Here's a question: Chastisement by God is intended to get us on the right track, and bring us closer to Him. Why would a saved person, once gone from this fallen earth, need chastisement? In eternity with God, we will have perfect bodies and be continually in God's presence. We certainly don't deserve anything that good, but because of God's mercy and grace, and Jesus' shed blood, we will receive it.

The whole ME thing just puts way too much emphasis on man's righteousness for me. It constantly brings to mind Isaiah 64:6 6For all of us have become like one who is (A)unclean,
And all our (B)righteous deeds are like a filthy garment;
And all of us (C)wither like a leaf,
And our (D)iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

I don't see how man's righteousness, being like a filthy garment, will gain him anything.

Jeff

 

Good reply, Jeff!

I'm not sure ME-ers have figured out that we will be raptured to 3rd heaven (not here on earth) in our ultimate glorified bodies for the Bema judgment, 1Cor 3:9-15. Our soul will be perfect -- our body perfect -- but our spirits (mind. emotions, and will) must be "perfected" by fire, Holy Spirit fire/power "by which He is able to subdue all things to Himself," Phil 3:21.

"Wood, hay, and stubble" represent the "mental and emotional baggage" of the earth that we have in us despite having left the earth. Believers wonder how we will ever be happy knowing some friends and family may spend eterntiy in hell. "Fire shall try" those doubts and quench those emotions. Will ME-ers be ashamed of teaching that believers spend 1000 years in hell (which, incidentally, would be the 2nd death to which NO person who is resurrected to glory can ever be condemned, Rev 20:6)?? Those thoughts and their shame, piled on them by "careless men" will be, will be burned away by the Truth of the Spirit!

>>>It's instructive for all to see, in this regard, how we will arrive in heaven WITH these thoughts and impulses. Rev 6:9-11 "9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,..." Does that not perfectly capture the emotions and the thoughts of those, possibly like us, who are newly arrived in heaven but before the judgment?? If this was prior to the Bema, can you imagine how the Spirit at the Bema will relieve these tormented ones of their worldly thoughts and cares? I believe that these, like the woman who had many sins forgiven, may even be happier (certainly more thankful) than those who received great reward!

skypair

 

Romans 8:1 seems to be the theme verse for the EIREITAD believers but it is curious that they never quote the whole verse...

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." - Romans 8:1​

 

:laugh: Thanks, SN. I needed a good laugh to start the day off! :thumbs:

 

Let's see, if ME'rs are right and people believe them, then those people will have a fear of the Lord and will move with fear to sanctify their lives.

If EIREITAD believers are right and people believe them, then there is no fear of judgment / chastisement and folks are more apt to live licentiously.

Thus, even if Kingdom Accountability wasn't Biblically obvious, if I was going to err, I'd err on the side that encourages people to stop sinning. Thus, while I may be ashamed about things in my life at the judgment seat, I strongly doubt preaching the Kingdom of God will be one of them.

 

So glad you laughed since this is all one big joke to you.

 

"Romans 8:1 seems to be the theme verse for the EIREITAD believers but it is curious that they never quote the whole verse..."

I DID quote the whole verse. There is a separate forum available for KJVO threads.