How to Dress for Church

[JonC]

I’ve been reading along for a while now and I don’t understand why you have questions.

While I don’t think I have read an answer for this question particularly yet, it has an easy answer.
Mt. 6
And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

He already said that he doesn’t talk to people about their clothes.
Modesty and dirt are not the same things. I have been to church with lots of people who wear the same thing every week and probably don’t change their clothes to sleep. Nobody kicks them out for dirty clothes. Dirt isn’t immodest. There were some people who were very inappropriate and immodest at church and were told not to come back because they were intentionally undressing for people. This used to be called indecency and in some places is an offense subject to arrest.
Others whose clothes did not have sufficient material to be called modest were offered clothes to cover themselves and be modest. If they chose not to respect the request of the church, they were requested to not come back until they were dressed modestly.
No, anyone given clothes was not forced to give the clothes back. They were gifted. If you really need clothes that badly, the church was happy to help.

Romans 14:5
One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

There is a principle in these verses that applies. If someone feels that they should dress a certain way for church and that to not do that is wrong, for them to not do it would be to sin against their own conscience, to willingly do wrong.
There is a moral teaching that is subject to standards but is an undeniable fact that God has given us clothes and that we need to be covered.

A little extravagant but it would work for church. I don’t like choir robes.
What about the rest of the week? Is it okay to cover what God gave you on Sunday and show it the rest of the week?
There is an acceptable amount of visible skin. To go beyond what is modest and wear what is suggestive and revealing is not modest and is not acceptable Christian behavior.
But if choir robes are the solution, don’t have a double standard for modesty, wear them all week.

I have questions because of what he said.

I said that we have had homeless people come in wearing dirty jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He said that it has happened to him as well. He said that these need growth, to be discipled.

But this does not make sence to me. Why would a homeless person need growth and to be discipling because of his clothing?

Maybe the man living in poverty is spiritually rich. Maybe he is the one who needs to do the discipling.

Why assume a spiritual state by the clothes a man owns?

 

[John of Japan]

I have questions because of what he said.

I said that we have had homeless people come in wearing dirty jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops. He said that it has happened to him as well. He said that these need growth, to be discipled.

But this does not make sence to me. Why would a homeless person need growth and to be discipling because of his clothing?

Oh, stop it. I did not say that clothing was a needed part of discipling someone. You twisted my words.

 

[JonC]

Oh, stop it. I did not say that clothing was a needed part of discipling someone. You twisted my words.

Sorry, I didn't mean to twist your words.

Certainly they would be welcome. But they would grow out of that as they grew spiritually. Dirty jeans? An old T? flip flops? I've seen them, talked to them. But growth is needed. I've discipled a man who didn't dress much better. Now he wears a suit--and I said not a single word to him about clothing!

From this post it appears to me that you were associating how one dresses with their spiritual state (they would grow out of wearing jeans as they grew spiritually, that wearing jeans and a shirt indicates growth is needed). My question was about how the homeless (that was the encounter I offered) would grow into wearing a suit.

We cannot assume that a person is spiritually lacking simply because he has no pillow to lay his head, or owns no nice clothes, or lacks the money to buy a new t-shirt much less an inexpensive suit.

 

[John of Japan]

Sorry, I didn't mean to twist your words.

Okay.

From this post it appears to me that you were associating how one dresses with their spiritual state (they would grow out of wearing jeans as they grew spiritually, that wearing jeans and a shirt indicates growth is needed). My question was about how the homeless (that was the encounter I offered) would grow into wearing a suit.

You missed the point completely. I DID NOT SAY THAT THEIR CLOTHES SHOWED THEIR SPIRITUAL STATE. It does not. Often a new believer (whatever their clothing) is closer to God than some well-dressed saint. My point was that spiritual growth can result in a better situation for a person after salvation. Have you ever ministered in a rescue mission? When an alcoholic gets saved, all sorts of good things happen, including taking better care of himself and his family.

We cannot assume that a person is spiritually lacking simply because he has no pillow to lay his head, or owns no nice clothes, or lacks the money to buy a new t-shirt much less an inexpensive suit.

I NEVER ASSUMED THIS! AND NEVER SAID IT.

One of my favorite Japanese of all time was Togo San. He came into our service in Yokohama one day wearing a military jacket. He loved war, the military, even Hitler. After coming for some time, Togo San borrowed Hal Lindsey's Lage Great Planet Earth, and reading it till 3:00 in the morning, he got saved! He was so excited as a new Christian. However, he was an amphetamine addict. He dressed a little better after salvation, but still liked that jacket. He told me I was the only person ever to visit him in his home, where he had a ton of military memorabilia.

After we moved to Hokkaido, we kept in touch. He was my buddy, my friend. Then one day I got a call from his girl friend, who weeping told me Togo was in Heaven. But he had told her about Jesus, so she was easy to lead to the Lord over the phone. After he died, Togo's witness won a soul to Christ, something many backslidden, nicely dressed believers never do!

U. San was a yakuza gangster. But he dressed nicely, and was faithful to the Lord. He dressed a lot nicer, in fact, than many Americans I've seen. Why? He showed honor to the Lord and his church and pastor. As a yakuza, he believed strongly in honor and respect, and he showed it.

 

[JonC]

Okay.

You missed the point completely. I DID NOT SAY THAT THEIR CLOTHES SHOWED THEIR SPIRITUAL STATE. It does not. Often a new believer (whatever their clothing) is closer to God than some well-dressed saint. My point was that spiritual growth can result in a better situation for a person after salvation. Have you ever ministered in a rescue mission? When an alcoholic gets saved, all sorts of good things happen, including taking better care of himself and his family.

I NEVER ASSUMED THIS! AND NEVER SAID IT.

Again, sorry if I misunderstood.

I am trying to understand the link made. We were talking about personal attire. I do get the jump you made from somebody wearing jeans, a t-shirt and flip-flops to growth and discipleship.

But I absolutely agree. How we dress is not an indication of our spiritual state. The guy in jeans and a t-shirt may very well be more mature than the guy in a suit (and vice versa). God does not see as man sees; for man looks at the outward appearance, but the God looks at the heart.

One of my favorite Japanese of all time was Togo San. He came into our service in Yokohama one day wearing a military jacket. He loved war, the military, even Hitler. After coming for some time, Togo San borrowed Hal Lindsey's Lage Great Planet Earth, and reading it till 3:00 in the morning, he got saved! He was so excited as a new Christian. However, he was an amphetamine addict. He dressed a little better after salvation, but still liked that jacket. He told me I was the only person ever to visit him in his home, where he had a ton of military memorabilia.

After we moved to Hokkaido, we kept in touch. He was my buddy, my friend. Then one day I got a call from his girl friend, who weeping told me Togo was in Heaven. But he had told her about Jesus, so she was easy to lead to the Lord over the phone. After he died, Togo's witness won a soul to Christ, something many backslidden, nicely dressed believers never do!

U. San was a yakuza gangster. But he dressed nicely, and was faithful to the Lord. He dressed a lot nicer, in fact, than many Americans I've seen. Why? He showed honor to the Lord and his church and pastor. As a yakuza, he believed strongly in honor and respect, and he showed it.

I'd say the Japaneese in general are more focused on outward appearance and honor. It is their culture.When I attended the church in Kyoto the pastor wore jeans and a nice shirt. But he was younger and perhaps less traditional than the older generation.

On a different note....an unrelated question:

Japan maintained this idea of honor long after the developed world changed. Anselm centered the Atonement on man robbing God of His honor, an honor that Christ restored. But this ideology changed (with theology it shifted from honor to merit and later to justice). Japan reminds me of studying medieval thought in a way.

Here is my question....not a theological question (I probably shouldn't have used the example).

Is the reason Japan maintained this honor system because of isolation?

 

[John of Japan]

I'd say the Japaneese in general are more focused on outward appearance and honor. It is their culture.When I attended the church in Kyoto the pastor wore jeans and a nice shirt. But he was younger and perhaps less traditional than the older generation.

Japan closely follows any American trend. In medicine, for example, they are usually about ten years behind the US, and they send doctors to the US to learn the latest science. Just so in Christianity. I remember when CCM started to become popular in Japan, and it took a while for them to figure it out. So I am sure the church you visited was just following the American trend.

On a different note....an unrelated question:

Japan maintained this idea of honor long after the developed world changed. Anselm centered the Atonement on man robbing God of His honor, an honor that Christ restored. But this ideology changed (with theology it shifted from honor to merit and later to justice). Japan reminds me of studying medieval thought in a way.

Here is my question....not a theological question (I probably shouldn't have used the example).

Is the reason Japan maintained this honor system because of isolation?

Japan is called an "honor-shame" culture, and there are many such in the Far East and Near East. The seminal work on this was The Chrysanthemum and the Sword, by Ruth Benedict, a sociologist who was hired by the US government to do "anthropology at a distance" (couldn't go to Japan) to figure out why our enemy the Japanese were like they were.

In the Far East, the honor-shame cultures are based on Confucianism, not their isolation. During their period of isolation (early 16th to mid 19th centuries), they still traded, etc., with China, Korea, and the Dutch. The education of the Samurai was mainly in Confucianism, and that became the foundation of their society. In line with Confucian teaching on relationships they will say they have a vertical society, while we have a horizontal society (all are equal). So if you cause your superior to lose face, there are dire consequences. And if you lose face, that reflects on your superior, and he loses face, too. This explains the high suicide rate in Japan--shame.

That is a very simplified explanation, but maybe it will help.

OK...now I have more questions


1. How does one grow out of poverty?

I never answered this particular question, but feel I should. When a person becomes a believer in Christ, they come under the care of the Father in Heaven. There are many Scriptures about this, so I don't feel the need to quote them except maybe one: "I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread" (Ps. 37:25). The Father cares for His own!

As for the dirty T, etc. The Holy Spirit would help them clean up. "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is not in the Bible, but still true. I really don't think it's God's will for His children to look dirty, whether at church, the store, or wherever!

This does not mean there is no need to help a fellow believer who is poor (Gal. 6:10). I grew up in a very poor Baptist preacher's family (Dad couldn't always find a pastorate, and often had to supplement ministry pay), but God always took care of us. And my parents made sure we always looked nice, even if it were hand-me-downs! But we were often blessed with help from the believers. I remember fondly a batch of deer sausage brought by a member once.

 

[Salty]

Excellent post John. I think part of the situation is what some think is NEED and what is a want.
For example - do you need a TV - no - a radio is sufficient.
Do you have to have T-Bone Steak every night -
NO - get hamburger helper - and a couple pounds of hamburger - and eat for a week.

As the song goes - I'm satisfied with a cottage below!

 

[mei]

God is amazing God to whom we have to praise Him from our inner hearts. You might be dressing the whole time a casual with your just known people, might be just a family member but when it comes to devote in Him we respectfully wear a decent dress.

Here in Burma, we do not dress a suit and a coat with tie, but we have our own like women's skirt for men (that is called Longyi). A dress is not an outfit to show off looking nice to people, but I understand it is to meet with an amazing God who created the Universe. Imagine a well known person comes at your home, and you won't welcome him with just short sleeping pants but at least we wear better and making nice ourselves.

God is more than that. Amen!

 

[John of Japan]

Excellent post John. I think part of the situation is what some think is NEED and what is a want.
For example - do you need a TV - no - a radio is sufficient.
Do you have to have T-Bone Steak every night -
NO - get hamburger helper - and a couple pounds of hamburger - and eat for a week.

As the song goes - I'm satisfied with a cottage below!

Singing with my guitar, that song was my first church special number! Love it! Not CCM, but not really a hymn, either. More of a Christian folk song--and there was some controversy about that in the 1960's. Should we allow folk songs in the church? Our youth group had a great book of choruses, hymns, and folk-type songs. Still have one!

 

[Some Rando]

I was in Junior ROTC in High School, and one thing our teacher said to me at the time has stuck with me ever since 30+ years:

He said: "Everybody wears a uniform".

I've considered that one of the more profoundly true statements the longer I consider it. To the extent that we can control what we wear (i.e. have the funds etc.) we must never forget that what we choose to wear makes a statement of some kind. This is a morally neutral statement, just an observation about human nature. These things do matter on some level. I prefer to "dress-up" for Church: suit, tie, or sports-coat and tie etc... However, I also think if I were to regularly attend a congregation which was much more casual in their dress, I would likely begin to dress-down a little more so as to "blend-in" more and not attract undue attention.
Both of those choices would indeed be saying something they would be a "uniform" in some sense.

People do not dress a certain way "for themselves".

 

[JonC]

I never answered this particular question, but feel I should. When a person becomes a believer in Christ, they come under the care of the Father in Heaven. There are many Scriptures about this, so I don't feel the need to quote them except maybe one: "I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread" (Ps. 37:25). The Father cares for His own!

As for the dirty T, etc. The Holy Spirit would help them clean up. "Cleanliness is next to godliness" is not in the Bible, but still true. I really don't think it's God's will for His children to look dirty, whether at church, the store, or wherever!

This does not mean there is no need to help a fellow believer who is poor (Gal. 6:10). I grew up in a very poor Baptist preacher's family (Dad couldn't always find a pastorate, and often had to supplement ministry pay), but God always took care of us. And my parents made sure we always looked nice, even if it were hand-me-downs! But we were often blessed with help from the believers. I remember fondly a batch of deer sausage brought by a member once.

I am trying to understand your answer.

I agree Gid cares for His own, but I don't know that this care extends to giving them nice clothes so they can dress "properly".

Same with those I mentioned who were living on the streets. They do take advantage if washers and showers when they can, but they have only what they can carry (in a backpack or sometimes a cart....a few had suitcase).

I cannot say that it displeases God, or that is not His will, for these people to come to church and worship with fellow believers, or even to come seeking Christ, simply because their best clothes is not our best clothes.

Christ died for the homeless living on the streets just as much as He died for me. Many are struggling with drugs, many with mental issues, and many are simply poor.

My wife works in a public school and encounters homeless children, and children who only own a couple pairs of clothes. I believe the angels rejoice even when one of these are saved, even if they still remain poor and unable to purchase church clothes.

But I realize much of this is my own opinion. We just have to disagree where we disagree.

 

[Ben1445]

I am trying to understand your answer.

I agree Gid cares for His own, but I don't know that this care extends to giving them nice clothes so they can dress "properly".

It literally does. Jesus taught it.

And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Same with those I mentioned who were living on the streets. They do take advantage if washers and showers when they can, but they have only what they can carry (in a backpack or sometimes a cart....a few had suitcase).

I am not saying all. There are always exceptions. In our area, there are people who refuse to shelter and cleanliness of the mission because they are looking for their own interests. They know that they are not allowed to bring alcohol or drugs into the mission. So they remain outside. They are not seeking the kingdom of God. They are hiding from it. Will God bless them and clothe them for it? The nearest I can find to the blessing of God on the unjust is that God gives them rain as He gives the just rain. With some work, they will be able to feed themselves. There may be other statements than this. It is just the only one that I can think of without looking.

I cannot say that it displeases God, or that is not His will, for these people to come to church and worship with fellow believers, or even to come seeking Christ, simply because their best clothes is not our best clothes.

Christ died for the homeless living on the streets just as much as He died for me. Many are struggling with drugs, many with mental issues, and many are simply poor.

My wife works in a public school and encounters homeless children, and children who only own a couple pairs of clothes. I believe the angels rejoice even when one of these are saved, even if they still remain poor and unable to purchase church clothes.

But I realize much of this is my own opinion. We just have to disagree where we disagree.

When people begin to live for God, God changes their desires. God gives them those things that they need. God puts them into His care.
Philippians 4:19
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

This statement was made because the people were taking care of others. They were seeking the kingdom of God.

When the prodigal returned home, he got new clothes. He was given nice clothes. He probably didn’t say that his father was not impressed by the clothes his father had given him. He probably wore them with appreciation.

 

[Salty]

I have been thinking about something. If someone in you church came regularly - and looked like a slob - would you be willing to take him
to a store and purchase a couple of outfits for him?

 

[JonC]

It literally does. Jesus taught it.

And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin: And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith? Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek: ) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

I am not saying all. There are always exceptions. In our area, there are people who refuse to shelter and cleanliness of the mission because they are looking for their own interests. They know that they are not allowed to bring alcohol or drugs into the mission. So they remain outside. They are not seeking the kingdom of God. They are hiding from it. Will God bless them and clothe them for it? The nearest I can find to the blessing of God on the unjust is that God gives them rain as He gives the just rain. With some work, they will be able to feed themselves. There may be other statements than this. It is just the only one that I can think of without looking.

When people begin to live for God, God changes their desires. God gives them those things that they need. God puts them into His care.
Philippians 4:19
But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

This statement was made because the people were taking care of others. They were seeking the kingdom of God.

When the prodigal returned home, he got new clothes. He was given nice clothes. He probably didn’t say that his father was not impressed by the clothes his father had given him. He probably wore them with appreciation.

I disagree with your interpretation of the passage. I do not believe the verse is saying that if you seek first the kingdom of God then God will give you nice suits.

Instead, if you seek first the kingdom of God you will realize that He provides for your needs. You may not have nice clothes but you will be clothed first and foremost in the righteousness of Christ.

God does not look at outward appearances. He does not see as man sees.

A problem with interpreting the passage as a type of prosperity gospel is it leads to false conclusions. If the truely faithful, those seeking first the kingdom of God, are given material wealth then those who are poor must be spiritually deprived. This is not right.

God supplies our needs, and our needs are in accordance with His plan. Where our heart is so also our treasure lies. We should not seek material wealth but to do His will.

I have been thinking about something. If someone in you church came regularly - and looked like a slob - would you be willing to take him
to a store and purchase a couple of outfits for him?

We have, not to a store but from clothing at the church. But so many are living hand to mouth. They do not have washing facilities avaliable on a daily basis. Many are literally living on the streets or sleeping on a cot as a shelter at night.

 

[Ben1445]

I disagree with your interpretation of the passage. I do not believe the verse is saying that if you seek first the kingdom of God then God will give you nice suits.

I didn’t say suits, but it is not out of the question.

Instead, if you seek first the kingdom of God you will realize that He provides for your needs. You may not have nice clothes but you will be clothed first and foremost in the righteousness of Christ.

While that is not an untrue statement (depending on your perspective of “nice clothes,”) it is not what is being said.

God does not look at outward appearances. He does not see as man sees.

A problem with interpreting the passage as a type of prosperity gospel is it leads to false conclusions. If the truely faithful, those seeking first the kingdom of God, are given material wealth then those who are poor must be spiritually deprived. This is not right.

What is your perception of poor?
I am well below the current poverty level(which is not an accurate measure of poverty). I have a nice house with a mortgage that I can afford, two cars, we are not starving, and I have suits and ties in my closet. I could continue.
I don’t look like I am homeless. There are probably a few homeless people who make more money than I do.

God supplies our needs, and our needs are in accordance with His plan. Where our heart is so also our treasure lies. We should not seek material wealth but to do His will.

So how does the statement “after all these things do the gentiles seek” fit in with your spiritual application?

Also, are we not supposed to seek after the spiritual clothing since the gentiles do?

Solomon was not well known for his spiritual clothing. (This was not the original emperor’s new clothes story.)
What sort of spiritual clothing do the lilies wear?

There is a lot you will need to explain to me before I could go along with you on this one.

I bought one suit in my life. (Actually, my parents bought it for me when I went to college.) It was a necessity. God provided it for me. Outside of that one instance, I can think of very few times in my life when I bought myself clothes. I have given away more suits, coats, and ties than I can remember. I would never be able to wear them all. They were all supplied to me. Only one was not worn by someone else. I also, for the majority of my life couldn’t afford to go out and buy a cheap suit. I still haven’t done it. While I could make the expense fit in the budget, it is not necessary. I have what I need, and what I have doesn’t need to be new.

Am I supposed to believe that God is not providing suits for me because it is a spiritual teaching?
I don’t look at clothes as a measure of wealth. I had no idea how much I didn’t know about clothing until you put up that $800 t-shirt. At this point, all my free clothing is far less prosperity than your t-shirt.

People chasing a prosperity gospel are still seeking the prosperity. They are not seeking the kingdom of God. Simon had a similar problem. He thought he could buy the power of God. What he wanted was a good thing to have. He wanted to have what the apostle's had. He was rebuked for his poor motives.
God has not promised any specific amount of return on investment. We are not dealing in the stock market. These examples are given in Scripture as examples of how we are to live, i.e. the parable of the talents.
While I agree that there are many people who don’t understand the right teaching of this subject, it does not remove God's care for our needs. God knows what we need. If we can afford to buy the $800 t-shirt, we should be discussing stewardship instead of prosperity gospel.

Concerning material wealth, there is also an argument to be made that nobody wants to wear suits anymore. Look at the standard in business. To compare dress to the world’s standard could only consistently mean that we are always trying to be at a wedding.
(And aren’t we?) this is not my reasoning for dressing up. It just came to mind as I thought about what people still dress up for. It would make a good illustration though.

 

[John of Japan]

I am trying to understand your answer.

I agree Gid cares for His own, but I don't know that this care extends to giving them nice clothes so they can dress "properly".

Same with those I mentioned who were living on the streets. They do take advantage if washers and showers when they can, but they have only what they can carry (in a backpack or sometimes a cart....a few had suitcase).

I cannot say that it displeases God, or that is not His will, for these people to come to church and worship with fellow believers, or even to come seeking Christ, simply because their best clothes is not our best clothes.

Christ died for the homeless living on the streets just as much as He died for me. Many are struggling with drugs, many with mental issues, and many are simply poor.

My wife works in a public school and encounters homeless children, and children who only own a couple pairs of clothes. I believe the angels rejoice even when one of these are saved, even if they still remain poor and unable to purchase church clothes.

But I realize much of this is my own opinion. We just have to disagree where we disagree.

"You must have completely missed my Post #35 in this thread." Oops, that's what I wrote first, but then I saw that you are trying to answer my post. But then you are not answering it. You seem to have totally missed my meaning.

For crying out loud, bring the homeless and poor people to church. I am absolutely for that. Bring them with dirty T shirts. Feed them. Help them. But if you don't introduce them to Jesus, what is the point? They will still be poor. But if they get saved, the Heavenly Father will help them. Don't you see that? The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father will provide for them.

Surely you know the Scriptures on this in Matt. 6 (Caveat: this is absolutely not the "prosperity gospel," as you intimated to Ben. That's a totally different thing. You really need to watch your accusations and keep them careful.)
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.

Of if you don't like that passage, I quoted this before and you never interacted with it. (and there are many more passages):
Psalm 37:25, "I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread." That's someone who is righteous, therefore saved. God takes care of his children, but you seem to deny that. I hope you are not.

Says the hymn you have abandoned: "Be not dismayed whate'er betide, God will take care of you."

I did not say anything about bringing the homeless to church.

Again you are assuming that because they are homeless they need to be introduced to Jesus.

God DOES provide for our brothers in Christ who are homeless. He provides those jeans and t-shirts. He provided a shelter for a night. Granted, what God provided for other people may not meet your standard, but it meets their need.

I do not understand how you can read your own posts and not realize that your words reflect a spiritual state based on one's material possessions.

I do not understand how you can read your own posts and not realize that you are twisting my words again and again. Do you believe in literal interpretation??

How dare you accuse me of materialism. I gave up several good job offers and went to Japan as a missionary for 33 years with my family. I forsook several job offers, a good job at a Christian publisher, and barely made ends meet for those years, especially when the dollar went down to 72 yen per dollar from 140 when we went there. I now teach at a Bible college, and have absolutely no retirement fund set up. And God has taken good care of us in every single financially difficult time, and will continue to do so. That's what our Father does every single time, just like my wife and I always met our son's needs as he grew up.

I'm done on this thread. I'm tired of how you twist my words.

 

[JonC]

What is your perception of poor?

I eas specifically talking about the homeless that attend our church.

For crying out loud, bring the homeless and poor people to church. I am absolutely for that. Bring them with dirty T shirts. Feed them. Help them. But if you don't introduce them to Jesus, what is the point? They will still be poor. But if they get saved, the Heavenly Father will help them. Don't you see that? The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father will provide for them.


Says the hymn you have abandoned: "Be not dismayed whate'er betide, God will take care of you."

I did not say anything about bringing the homeless to church.

Again you are assuming that because they are homeless they need to be introduced to Jesus.

God DOES provide for our brothers in Christ who are homeless. He provides those jeans and t-shirts. He provided a shelter for a night. Granted, what God provided for other people may not meet your standard, but it meets their need.

I do not understand how you can read your own posts and not realize that your words reflect a spiritual state based on one's material possessions.

I did not say I abandoned hymns. You are assuming. I love traditional hymns. I updated the music to something more appropriate for worship.

I do not understand how you can read your own posts and not realize that you are twisting my words again and again. Do you believe in literal interpretation??

How dare you accuse me of materialism. I gave up several good job offers and went to Japan as a missionary for 33 years with my family. I forsook several job offers, a good job at a Christian publisher, and barely made ends meet for those years, especially when the dollar went down to 72 yen per dollar from 140 when we went there. I now teach at a Bible college, and have absolutely no retirement fund set up. And God has taken good care of us in every single financially difficult time, and will continue to do so. That's what our Father does every single time, just like my wife and I always met our son's needs as he grew up.

I'm done on this thread. I'm tired of how you twist my words.

I am not twisting your words. I am quoting them and responding to what is stated.


1. For crying out loud, bring the homeless and poor people to church. I am absolutely for that. Bring them with dirty T shirts. Feed them. Help them.

I did not say bring the homeless to church.

2. But if you don't introduce them to Jesus, what is the point? They will still be poor.

Your post IS assuming they are not saved. You can claim I am twisting your words, but the words above assumes these peoole are not saved.

3. But if they get saved, the Heavenly Father will help them. Don't you see that?

The above statement assumes not only that the homeless in question are mot saved but that they are mot being heloed by God.

4. The Bible clearly teaches that God the Father will provide for them.

Again, assuming they are lost. Assuming what they have was not provided by God.


WHAT WAS SAID ABOUT THESE PEOPLE?

They were homeless, came to worship God, they wore dirty jeans and t-shirts.

Why assume they are lost?

 

[Salty]

Time for a break
Thread closed (at least for now)

 

[John of Japan]

Here we are nowadays.