xfrodobagginsx
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How To Get To Heaven When You Die
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Hi xfrodobagginsx, I want to offer constructive criticism, as I really like your project.
First, I want to say that I think you need to be careful with the presidential pardon analogy, because someone new to the faith may assume Jesus gets to pardon by dearth of his office as Son of God, which is what came to my mind first when I read it from my old atheistic perspective. Of course, He only gets to pardon because He went to the Cross. I think that if you draw attention to the fact that Jesus, by going to the cross for their sins, has become able to grant pardon for their sins by dying for them you will have a strong emotional sentence or two. Thus, drawing the reader more into what Jesus did for them and what He can do for them in normal American language. Just my two cents on that.
It also seems like you need to send them to the Word of God with some rudimentary idea of what to do with it in terms of reading and study. To me sending them to the Word is as vital as sending them to a church given the deceptions out there. I would also point them to prayer in order for them to do it daily with an idea of how to pray solid prayers like at least the Lord’s Prayer as it’s assumed everyone knows it at most churches.
Now, as a recent convert I do know that the little prayer is completely inadequate to preparing Believers for the marathon of faith they are about to begin. I may go into my experience later, but instead I want to go to the Word of God. The key verses that indicate that we must count the cost before becoming disciples are Luke 14:25-34, Luke 9:57-62, Luke 9:23-25, Mark 8:34-36, Matthew 16:24-27, and John 12:23-26. .
As for what to do about warning people about the cost of discipleship, me personally, even though I am only eight and a half months a Believer, I now want to write a prayer that is like the little prayer, but shows the need to count the cost. Of course, as a spiritual child I am nowhere near there yet.
As for you xfrodobagginsx, To be honest, I would point in one paragraph to all those who have come before by using some church history. I would probably quote Matthew 16:24-27 and talk of the martyrs from Rome to Sudan to show that this is not a faith for those who want to live a lukewarm life of faith with their “religion” as an additive to their life with the purpose of making them happy. Of course, that’s just my approach. I just strongly suggest you let your reader know that we are to follow Jesus on the pathway to our own cross in service to the Kingdom as much as trusting Him to have born the price of our sins on His Cross.
First, I want to say that I think you need to be careful with the presidential pardon analogy, because someone new to the faith may assume Jesus gets to pardon by dearth of his office as Son of God, which is what came to my mind first when I read it from my old atheistic perspective. Of course, He only gets to pardon because He went to the Cross. I think that if you draw attention to the fact that Jesus, by going to the cross for their sins, has become able to grant pardon for their sins by dying for them you will have a strong emotional sentence or two. Thus, drawing the reader more into what Jesus did for them and what He can do for them in normal American language. Just my two cents on that.
It also seems like you need to send them to the Word of God with some rudimentary idea of what to do with it in terms of reading and study. To me sending them to the Word is as vital as sending them to a church given the deceptions out there. I would also point them to prayer in order for them to do it daily with an idea of how to pray solid prayers like at least the Lord’s Prayer as it’s assumed everyone knows it at most churches.
Now, as a recent convert I do know that the little prayer is completely inadequate to preparing Believers for the marathon of faith they are about to begin. I may go into my experience later, but instead I want to go to the Word of God. The key verses that indicate that we must count the cost before becoming disciples are Luke 14:25-34, Luke 9:57-62, Luke 9:23-25, Mark 8:34-36, Matthew 16:24-27, and John 12:23-26. .
As for what to do about warning people about the cost of discipleship, me personally, even though I am only eight and a half months a Believer, I now want to write a prayer that is like the little prayer, but shows the need to count the cost. Of course, as a spiritual child I am nowhere near there yet.
As for you xfrodobagginsx, To be honest, I would point in one paragraph to all those who have come before by using some church history. I would probably quote Matthew 16:24-27 and talk of the martyrs from Rome to Sudan to show that this is not a faith for those who want to live a lukewarm life of faith with their “religion” as an additive to their life with the purpose of making them happy. Of course, that’s just my approach. I just strongly suggest you let your reader know that we are to follow Jesus on the pathway to our own cross in service to the Kingdom as much as trusting Him to have born the price of our sins on His Cross.
I think Frodo is on the right track by not bogging down the simplicity of the Gospel with what looks more like religiosity and legalism than the Gospel of Christ.
Salvation is the result of the Comforter dealing with the heart of the natural man, not a religious "pathway:"
God bless.
I may not agree entirely with your soteriology but to me this is fairly true. As I ponder His Word, while Jesus warned the miracle-adoring crowds after an amazing show to count the cost, Peter simply baptized Cornelius and his whole family. I now see that not everyone is told to count the cost immediately. Wherever they went the apostles founded churches. I see this as important in the discussion of counting the cost because these communities allow for discipleship to occur where people are prepared to face trial and tribulation while much, much more is taught and instilled into them.
Thus, I am forced to retract my last three paragraphs of the post I made earlier xfrodobagginsx and Darrell C. I spoke hastily without a full scanning of the Word. It would be the new convert's church's responsibility to teach them how to run a marathon and endure all manner of hardships and griefs, and to aim in their lives to suffer as Christ so suffered to both know Him and share in the fellowship of His sufferings (Philippians 3:10-11).
I also wanted to say I'm sorry xfrodobagginsx and thank you Darrel C as I spoke hastily last night and should have probably slept on it before posting.
I was wrong to have said all this.
I also wanted to add that assuming this evangelistic text is meant for online use, if I were a new Believer the number one thing I would want is some discipleship on how to live my new faith until I get situated in a church. Now I don't want in any way to make this into a restricted pathway. It is just that it would be nice if somehow a bag of cyber goodies could be provided for those who have no prior knowledge of the Christian faith such as is provided at Crusades for new converts. I had been an atheist years ago and I can definitely say these things are essential since you have to assume your readers have no prior experience with the Christian faith, especially if this is online evangelistic ministry and internationally available.
I would include a bible, a brief guide to reading and studying the bible for the first time, a brief guide to prayer for the first time, and an explanation of what a bible-believing church is at least. I bet these are resources already online. Biblegateway makes for a solid online bible for instance. You might want to check out the Billy Graham Association website for other resources online for new Christians as just providing links to new Christians could go a long way.
In addition, an explanation of what a bible-believing church seems to be needed as many people will probably have no idea what you mean by that and will resort to a google search, which may end in disaster. For one, I have heard many Mainline denomination pastors call their churches bible-believing despite teaching things like historical criticism and the need to not take the bible literally.
Thanks for your blessings Darrell C, I send some right back at you in Jesus' name.
I was wrong to have said all this.
I also wanted to add that assuming this evangelistic text is meant for online use, if I were a new Believer the number one thing I would want is some discipleship on how to live my new faith until I get situated in a church. Now I don't want in any way to make this into a restricted pathway. It is just that it would be nice if somehow a bag of cyber goodies could be provided for those who have no prior knowledge of the Christian faith such as is provided at Crusades for new converts. I had been an atheist years ago and I can definitely say these things are essential since you have to assume your readers have no prior experience with the Christian faith, especially if this is online evangelistic ministry and internationally available.
I would include a bible, a brief guide to reading and studying the bible for the first time, a brief guide to prayer for the first time, and an explanation of what a bible-believing church is at least. I bet these are resources already online. Biblegateway makes for a solid online bible for instance. You might want to check out the Billy Graham Association website for other resources online for new Christians as just providing links to new Christians could go a long way.
In addition, an explanation of what a bible-believing church seems to be needed as many people will probably have no idea what you mean by that and will resort to a google search, which may end in disaster. For one, I have heard many Mainline denomination pastors call their churches bible-believing despite teaching things like historical criticism and the need to not take the bible literally.
Thanks for your blessings Darrell C, I send some right back at you in Jesus' name.
xfrodobagginsx
Member
Yes, Salvation is simply laid out by Paul who was the Apostle of the Gentiles. Remember that the other NT books were written to the Jews who were under the Law. Salvation is by grace through faith alone in Jesus Christ. The good works are the result of salvation, not the cause.
Said perfectly. Again I am sorry for post #62.
xfrodobagginsx
Member
I appreciate your kindness.
You were not wrong to have said this. You were quoting the gospel as presented by Jesus. Do not repent of the teaching of Jesus, even if it is unpopular!
I believe that we are saved by grace through faith and not by works. However, the story of Nicodemus clearly says that we "must be born again." This means a significant change in our lives which is recognizable by people we come into contact with. Jesus said:
[Mat 7:16-20 KJV] 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
A genuine conversion is demonstrated by doing good works for the glory of God only. Those who preach a conversion experience which isn't accompanied by following Jesus and becoming more like him are preaching a false gospel.
xfrodobagginsx
Member
Dear friends, Take this moment, If you want to accept Jesus Christ free gift of salvation, pray this from your heart, humbly to God:
“DEAR LORD JESUS, I BELIEVE THAT YOU DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR MY SINS. I ASK YOU TO PLEASE COME INTO MY HEART AND FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS, TAKE ME TO BE WITH YOU WHEN I DIE. I NOW RECEIVE YOU AS MY LORD AND SAVIOR. THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME. IN JESUS NAME AMEN.”
If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die
“DEAR LORD JESUS, I BELIEVE THAT YOU DIED ON THE CROSS AND ROSE FROM THE DEAD FOR MY SINS. I ASK YOU TO PLEASE COME INTO MY HEART AND FORGIVE ME FOR MY SINS, TAKE ME TO BE WITH YOU WHEN I DIE. I NOW RECEIVE YOU AS MY LORD AND SAVIOR. THANK YOU FOR SAVING ME. IN JESUS NAME AMEN.”
If you have placed your faith in Jesus Christ and meant it with all of your heart, you are now a child of God and will go to heaven when you die
May I ask, where in Scripture does it even suggest one must pray this prayer for salvation?
Is it not right and Scriptural that one is saved by the work of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God?
Is it not Scripture teaching that the single response to that work is belief?
Why then would one “ask” for what God has already done?
What right and authority is found in the Scriptures or even examples found in the Scriptures for such a prayer?
This is the clear teaching of Scriptures: whoever believes in Him is saved.
No prayer necessary.
Jesus does not dispense a trip to heaven on the basis of a prayer. This is simply a false gospel.
Beyond the fact that "going to heaven when you die" is not a biblical focus (you won't find anyone in the Bible pitching the idea of "going to heaven"), one comes into the Kingdom of God by following Jesus in turning from one's old life into a new life of learning to be like Christ. Those who enter the Kingdom will receive eternal life, will be resurrected into immortal bodies, and will reign with Christ on the earth (and possibly beyond) when the heavens and earth are reunited (as described in the last chapter of Revelation).
It is also scriptural that we would confess along with believe. But I think you know that.
I think we have to be careful, though. The bible tells us what believe means at minimum in Romans 10:9 which states:
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Beyond that is how to confirm our election, which is all over the New Testament. However, my favorite for it is 2 Peter 1:3-11. There is also the whole of 1 John.
But bear in mind that Paul was addressing the Jews who had been driven out of Israel to Rome.
They already believed in God, and the Holy Spirit, but they denied that Yahwah of the OT was the Jesus of the NT. He is saying to them, "You have just one more thing, if you confess that Jesus is LORD (Yahwah) and in His resurrection (IE, power over death) you will be saved." The way to identify the elect Jews is that they received Jesus as Yahwah, unlike those John mentioned who "received Him not." (John 1:11.)
Beware of any "plan of salvation" that includes human merit.
xfrodobagginsx
Member
Christians Do go to heaven:
Mr 16:19 ¶ So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
(KJV)
Php 1:21 ¶ For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
People in heaven:
Re 19:1 ¶ And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
(KJV)
Jesus Christ is going to rule and reign on the earth. The believers will be with Him on the earth at that time. Right now believer's go to heaven to be with the Lord Jesus Christ because that is where He is.
You need to pay attention to what I actually wrote:
Yes, Jesus entered into the heavens and took His place, the place of authority. This has nothing to do with us "going to heaven."
Yes. In the intermediate state, before the resurrection, we will exist in the same reality as Jesus. God is not the God of the dead, but the living. But as I wrote, this is not a biblical focus... the Kingdom of God, receiving eternal life, and the resurrection of the dead are where we should be focused. Nowhere in the scripture will you find anyone pitching the idea of "going to heaven." It is always a focus on the Kingdom, on eternal life, or on the resurrection and the restoration/redemption of all things. Your focus on "going to heaven" completely distorts the gospel message by making the gospel a message of escape from the world (a "this world is not my home" theology) instead of the biblical message. You are advocating a type of Jesus-flavored Platonism, not the gospel of Jesus. The bodies we have will be redeemed. This world we have will be restored. Our home is on the earth with our citizenship in the Kingdom of God that is being restored to the earth through the work of the Spirit and the church. Your message does not bear any resemblance between the sermons of Jesus or the early church recorded in scripture.
If you read this passage in the broad context of Paul's writings, you will know that he does not see the heavens as a destination. Moreover, Paul knows he is facing death. The verse immediately preceding this, which you did not quote, reads, "My eager expectation and hope is that I will not be ashamed about anything, but that now as always, with all boldness, Christ will be highly honored in my body, whether by life or by death." Paul continues shortly after the portion of the passage you quoted to encourage his readers "not to be frightened in any way by your opponents. This is a sign of destruction for them, but of your deliverance - and this is from God. For it has been given to you on Christ's behalf not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for Him, having the same struggle that you saw I had and now hear I have." (vv. 28-30)
In short, Paul is exhorting his readers not to fear death imposed by those who oppose Christ. This is not a balanced gospel presentation about how to be right with God, but rather encouragement in the face of death to persons who already believe and are facing martyrdom. Nowhere does Paul preach to unbelievers how they can "get to heaven."
You are confusing my correction of your well-intentioned but faulty "gospel" message with the idea that I don't believe that people, for a time, are with Christ in the heavens. Again, you need to read carefully.
Actually Jesus is on the earth and the heavens at the same time in the present age, although the heavens and earth are not reconnected yet. The ascension is less about location than it is about the coronation of the risen Lord over the heavens and the earth. Jesus rules over the earth (aka, the Kingdom of God) in an incomplete way at this point, but each day as the Kingdom grows through the spreading of the gospel and the obedience of His ambassadors, His influence spreads. However, there will come a day when He calls an complete end to evil, and He will be revealed to all. On that day, all persons will be judged and every rival kingdom and evildoer will come to an end. Then the heavens and the end will be reunited and God's project of growth, creativity and love will continue with His people.
I get what you are saying, and I believe it is a valid interpretation. However, I also think you might be reading a little into things. There may be an internal logic to Romans 10:8-13 that seems to make this section universal. At least most people who have taught this verse that I have read, teach it as a universal declaration. This may be wrong of course.
My problem is, again, there needs to be fruit from faith to have faith at all. Faith and fruit are not separate things but are like two sides of the same coin. Anyone who has faith that will pass the test of the parable of the sower must have feet to faith. To me, we have to be careful with Romans 10:9 because there are many in the Islamic World that teach that lying about your faith is totally fine to escape persecution. The need to declare faith publicly is overlooked. Despite the fact, that a common interpretation of the bible may prove such faith void at the Judgment.
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