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How to handle this unbeliever?

evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Met someone in DT Denver that I have been chatting with via email. He is not a Relativist and open to reasoning. However he denies the vicarious or sub atonement and the blood. I have him many verses to defend this doctrine but he also tells me he believes in partial inerrancy and the dictation inspiration view. In DT Denver he admitted he had broken every 10 commandment and so that was a start to his humility but as Metzger teaches true evangelism is not just the conscience but the whole person so the LAW is only a starting point. He recently wrote and gave me objections why Genesis 1-6 are not literal, Neither is Job, or Revelation. But he believes in the gospels and their inerrancy. I have systematic theologies and books on bibliology that will aid me. But as I am not dealing with an atheist which those books are focused this one may take some extra digging. Ideas??

I think I will just give him 2 Tim 3:16 among other passages and even show where Jesus quoted the OT and also What Peter said of Paul. However only the Holy Spirit can turn on the lights of this person and bring him illumination. I will discuss and reason with him all that I can and may suggest he get a book called 7 Reasons why you can trust the Bible which defends all 66 books of the Bible as being inerrant and infallible. Perhaps a much better choice over a Geisler book which is too complex.
 
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preachinjesus

preachinjesus

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Maybe he's a fine Christian who disagrees theologically with you.

Treat him as a fellow believer with whom you have some differences theologically.
 
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PreachTony

Active Member
evangelist6589 said:
He recently wrote and gave me objections why Genesis 1-6 are not literal, Neither is Job, or Revelation. But he believes in the gospels and their inerrancy.
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Just out of curiosity, why are you labeling him an "unbeliever?"

Is it simply because he doesn't subscribe to the same interpretations of scripture that you do? By that logic, you must consider me an unbeliever, as I'm not a literalist when it comes to the vast majority of the eschatology debate, but that doesn't take away the fact that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.

Or is it because he admitted to breaking "the Law?" Well, all of us are guilty of that. There is none righteous. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Doesn't necessarily make us "unbelievers."
 
evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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PreachTony said:
Just out of curiosity, why are you labeling him an "unbeliever?"



Is it simply because he doesn't subscribe to the same interpretations of scripture that you do? By that logic, you must consider me an unbeliever, as I'm not a literalist when it comes to the vast majority of the eschatology debate, but that doesn't take away the fact that Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior.



Or is it because he admitted to breaking "the Law?" Well, all of us are guilty of that. There is none righteous. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Doesn't necessarily make us "unbelievers."
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No. He does not believe Revelation is Canon or of God. But it's not just that he denies other canonical books as well and claims they are not by God.
 
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Yeshua1

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evangelist6589 said:
Impossible. No one can deny full inerrancy and the blood of Christ and be saved.
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There are many who deny the truth of the Bible who are saved , who deny its full inspiration/inerrancy/infallibility,despite that wrong view though they have been saved by grcae of God...

Does he deny that Jesus died for his sons, that he must receive jesus as Lord/saviour by faith then?
 
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matt wade

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
There are many who deny the truth of the Bible who are saved , who deny its full inspiration/inerrancy/infallibility,despite that wrong view though they have been saved by grcae of God...

Does he deny that Jesus died for his sons, that he must receive jesus as Lord/saviour by faith then?
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At some point don't you veer away from the Jesus of the Bible and believe in something that isn't really Jesus and therefore you aren't saved?

For instance, what if I believe in a Jesus that was married, struck someone dead because he was angry with them, etc? If I believe that Jesus died for my sins am I saved?
 
evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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Yeshua1 said:
There are many who deny the truth of the Bible who are saved , who deny its full inspiration/inerrancy/infallibility,despite that wrong view though they have been saved by grcae of God...

Does he deny that Jesus died for his sons, that he must receive jesus as Lord/saviour by faith then?
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Yes and they are called Neo-Evangelicals.
 
JonC

JonC

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matt wade said:
At some point don't you veer away from the Jesus of the Bible and believe in something that isn't really Jesus and therefore you aren't saved?

For instance, what if I believe in a Jesus that was married, struck someone dead because he was angry with them, etc? If I believe that Jesus died for my sins am I saved?
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Someone could believe all the right things and we still would not know their heart. I think there is a point where one believes, but at the same time that belief is a denial of the gospel. I don't think believing Jesus married is that point (although I have no clue how one would arrive at that conclusion). Denying the atonement, however, is one such point.
 
evangelist6589

evangelist6589

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JonC said:
Someone could believe all the right things and we still would not know their heart. I think there is a point where one believes, but at the same time that belief is a denial of the gospel. I don't think believing Jesus married is that point (although I have no clue how one would arrive at that conclusion). Denying the atonement, however, is one such point.
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I am doing my best to reason with this man to truth and pray for his salvation.
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Good morning,

Three points might be good examples of my questioning go the bible, First, it is possible that I might have an incorrect understanding of inerrancy. To my understanding it means that god dictated each and every word of the bible and that each and every story, action, commandment, etc. is right, and complete.
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Hello xxxxx,

No inerrancy does not mean the diction theory of inspiration as the authors were not robots but men whom communicated the scriptures under the influence of the Holy Spirit. Inerrancy means that the Bible has no errors, and infallibly means that it cannot error. The authors personalities do show up in the various books, but all scripture is given by inspiration of God (2 Tim 3:16).

1) Genesis the creation stories. I don't believe, and I think scientist back me up, in the six day creation story. HOWEVER, there are four words: " In the beginning God ..." Which says to me that regardless of how god was the reason and center.
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Well if you believe in Jesus you will believe that all the Bible is given by inspiration of God. Look up these verses to see what Jesus said of the OT.

Mt 22:43
Mt 26:54
Luke 16:31
Mt 5:17-18
Lk 24:27
Mt 12:40
John 3:12, 17:17
John 10:35

2) Job No. Just No! However, as a story it shows that god is supreme and is above us in all ways. It shows that god is God.
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Why not? Look up the verses above.

3) Revelation. Sigh I gave up reading this years ago. Every Christian denomination sees end times differently and frequently various churches IN the denomination sees things differently.
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Sure they do, but they all see it as a part of the Canon. The Preterist interprets the book differently than the futurist, and there are a variety of positions on eschatology within the church, however everyone of them sees the book as part of the Canon.

There are many many more areas like this. As a student of history I'm aware of how contentious and, even, violent the struggle for power and defining the canon of bible letters there was.
So once again - I struggle to understand & AND FOLLOW the the core, the center of what is real.
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Hey xxxx are you open to reading some books? If so I can mention some titles that you can buy new or used that will get into far more depth than what I have provided and will use archaeology, history, science, and such to show that the Bible is the word of God in all 66 books.


John
 
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PreachTony

Active Member
go2church said:
When did inerrancy become a requirement for salvation? Missed that verse I guess.
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Agreed. If this man is being difficult about the necessity of the blood for salvation, then you have an issue. But if your division is only about acceptance of inerrancy of scripture, then I would say you're at a needless point. Doctrine is great, but salvation ought to take precedence over doctrine.

Consider that when a baby is hungry you don't put a four-course meal in front of him, but you give him a bottle of milk. There's a reason the writer of Hebrews 5:12 said "For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat."
 
InTheLight

InTheLight

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According to the quotes you posted attributed to him, this person does not think the creation narrative took place in six 24 hour days, does not think the book of Job is literal, and does not think Revelation is literal. These are not salvation issues.

Furthermore, I don't see anything in your quotations of him stating that Revelation is not c@non or that he denies the blood atonement. You did say that he stated he believes the inerrancy of the gospels.

Why don't you simply ask him, "If you were to die today, where do you think your soul would go?" Then shut up and listen.
 
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