Hi! Good morning!
Where in 1 Corinthians 10:16 does it say that Christ Himself is present IN the elements?
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How to Know You are in a Heterodox Cult
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Where in 1 Corinthians 10:16 does it say that Christ Himself is present IN the elements?
Jesus says it in the following verses.
1 Cor 11.
23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread,
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.”
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.
Mark 14:22-24
22While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, "Take it; this is my body."
23Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, and they all drank from it. 24"This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many," he said to them.
Matt 26
26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you.
28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins
I think those verses are very clear about what the bread and wine really are.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Proper hermeneutics requires context and basic knowledge of grammar. Jesus uses metaphor in John 6 as well as in several other famous passages where He likens himself to a door, a vine, a good shepherd, a light, bread, etc. Consider the context of John 6.
Jesus explains He is the true bread from Heaven, far superior to the manna which only sustained the body in temporary fashion. Jesus, on the other hand, sustains the soul, giving it life eternal because Jesus is the ‘living bread.’ The bread which Jesus gives is His flesh. Eyes of faith and belief in His Gospel are the means by which we metaphorically ‘eat’ Jesus.
“And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day” (John 6:40; Douay-Rheims).
Jesus explains that ‘eating His flesh’ and ‘drinking His blood’ are to be understood metaphorically and spiritually. They are not literal because eating literal flesh is of no value toward gaining eternal life:
“It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; Douay-Rheims).
Moreover, "And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me" (Luke 22:19 Douay-Rheims). Jesus was present in His body when declaring the bread His body. Thus, either Christ has two bodies (which Scripture refutes - Ephesians 4:4); or bread is used as a metaphor.
I realize you Roman Catholics have been taught otherwise. Tragically, this is only one of innumerable superstitions you cling to with fervent worship. Prayerfully, the Spirit of God will enlighten you to the truth which will set you free of such God-dishonoring beliefs and practices.
Jesus explains He is the true bread from Heaven, far superior to the manna which only sustained the body in temporary fashion. Jesus, on the other hand, sustains the soul, giving it life eternal because Jesus is the ‘living bread.’ The bread which Jesus gives is His flesh. Eyes of faith and belief in His Gospel are the means by which we metaphorically ‘eat’ Jesus.
“And this is the will of my Father that sent me: that every one who seeth the Son and believeth in him may have life everlasting. And I will raise him up in the last day” (John 6:40; Douay-Rheims).
Jesus explains that ‘eating His flesh’ and ‘drinking His blood’ are to be understood metaphorically and spiritually. They are not literal because eating literal flesh is of no value toward gaining eternal life:
“It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; Douay-Rheims).
Moreover, "And taking bread, he gave thanks, and brake; and gave to them, saying: This is my body, which is given for you. Do this for a commemoration of me" (Luke 22:19 Douay-Rheims). Jesus was present in His body when declaring the bread His body. Thus, either Christ has two bodies (which Scripture refutes - Ephesians 4:4); or bread is used as a metaphor.
I realize you Roman Catholics have been taught otherwise. Tragically, this is only one of innumerable superstitions you cling to with fervent worship. Prayerfully, the Spirit of God will enlighten you to the truth which will set you free of such God-dishonoring beliefs and practices.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
I apologize for the delay, as I have not had much leisure the past couple of days.
1 Cor 10:16 ---> "We have a cup that we bless; is not this cup we bless a participation (communicatio / κοινωνία - koinōnia) in Christ’s blood? Is not the bread we break a participation (participatio) in Christ’s body?"
---> Communion - κοινωνία (koinōnia) means: fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy
You can only be having a participation (communion) in Christ's body and blood if His body and blood are present. Otherwise, you would NOT be having a participation in his body and blood.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
When Jesus likened Himself to a vine, a shepherd or light, did He command anyone to eat said vine, shepherd or light?
Was the eating also metaphorical at the Last Supper?
Jesus explicitly states what the bread is...
John 6:51 ---> "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world." (DR)
Where does He explain it is simply a metaphor? It's actually quite the opposite. For His flesh is what redeemed man on the cross and it certainly was most profitable.
What the "flesh profits nothing" refers to is rejecting Jesus teaching because they are using their human reasoning, their senses, instead of faith.
"His meaning is, You must hear spiritually what relates to Me, for he who hears carnally is not profited, nor gathers any advantage. It was carnal to question how He came down from heaven, to deem that He was the son of Joseph, to ask, How can he give us His flesh to eat?All this was carnal, when they ought to have understood the matter in a mystical and spiritual sense. But, says some one, how could they understand what the 'eating flesh' might mean? Then it was their duty to wait for the proper time and enquire, and not to abandon Him. That is, they are divine and spiritual, have nothing carnal about them, are not subject to the laws of physical consequence, but are free from any such necessity, are even set above the laws appointed for this world, and have also another and a different meaning. Now as in this passage He said spirit, instead of spiritual, so when He speaks of flesh, He meant not carnal things, but carnally hearing, and alluding at the same time to them, because they ever desired carnal things when they ought to have desired spiritual. For if a man receives them carnally, he profits nothing. What then, is not His flesh, flesh? Most certainly. How then says He, that the flesh profits nothing? He speaks not of His own flesh, (God forbid!) but of those who received His words in a carnal manner. But what is understanding carnally? It is looking merely to what is before our eyes, without imagining anything beyond. This is understanding carnally. But we must not judge thus by sight, but must look into all mysteries with the eyes within. This is seeing spiritually. He that eats not His flesh, and drinks not His blood, has no life in him. How then does the flesh profit nothing, if without it we cannot live? Do you see that the words, the flesh profits nothing, are spoken not of His own flesh, but of carnal hearing?"- St. John Chysostom, Homily 47 on the Gospel of John
Christians believe Christ is sacramentally present in the Eucharist. This is Christianity 101.
Once again, I always find it strange that those who profess to believe that God was present in a box making its way across the wilderness, took the form of a cloud, took the form of a dove, and even became an actual man, entering into His creation as a baby, cannot bring themselves to believe that this same God would be present amongst His people in the Eucharist.
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There's quite a difference to him using a metaphor like a door or a vine in one of his parables to him using the term "My body" and "My Blood". The former metaphors were a teaching tool that he commonly used, the latter was on the eve of his great sacrifice.
Yes, the teaching that was given to all of Christendom from the very beginning. The Apostles had that belief and passed it down to their successors who took up the mantle of leadership in the newly forming Christian Church.
One which evidently infected all of Christendom until one man named Huldrych Zwingli thought otherwise in the early 16th century.
No! Hopefully the Holy Spirit will at some point enlighten you to the truth of this teaching and lead you away from the false belief that you now have that only was started by one man some 1500 plus years down the line. (He was even dissenting from Luther on this.) You guys can't even get your fake communion right with the unscriptural "grape juice and crackers" as the elements, so don't try to lecture us on what is the truth or not.
A beautiful quote from St. John Chrysostom, but you do realize this means little to our friend as they by and large reject the ECF's. John Smyth is their go to guy don't you know!
Actually its Jesus Christ!
Protestant
Well-Known Member
The Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Sacrament of the Eucharist: Basic Questions and Answers (per United States Conference of Catholic Bishops)
“Why do we speak of the "Body of Christ" in more than one sense?
First, the Body of Christ refers to the human body of Jesus Christ, who is the divine Word become man. During the Eucharist, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. As human, Jesus Christ has a human body, a resurrected and glorified body that in the Eucharist is offered to us in the form of bread and wine.”
-------------------------------------
Of course, this is yet another outright lie which contradicts the clear Word of God as translated by the Douay-Rheims Bible:
Repent therefore and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from [the] presence of the Lord, and he may send Jesus Christ, who was foreordained for you, whom heaven indeed must receive till [the] times of [the] restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began (Acts 3:19-21).
The resurrected glorified Christ will remain in Heaven until the Last Day, at which time every eye will see Him return to Earth in flaming fire, with clouds (Rev. 1:7; 2 Thess. 1:8).
“Why do we speak of the "Body of Christ" in more than one sense?
First, the Body of Christ refers to the human body of Jesus Christ, who is the divine Word become man. During the Eucharist, the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ. As human, Jesus Christ has a human body, a resurrected and glorified body that in the Eucharist is offered to us in the form of bread and wine.”
-------------------------------------
Of course, this is yet another outright lie which contradicts the clear Word of God as translated by the Douay-Rheims Bible:
Repent therefore and be converted, for the blotting out of your sins, so that times of refreshing may come from [the] presence of the Lord, and he may send Jesus Christ, who was foreordained for you, whom heaven indeed must receive till [the] times of [the] restoring of all things, of which God has spoken by the mouth of his holy prophets since time began (Acts 3:19-21).
The resurrected glorified Christ will remain in Heaven until the Last Day, at which time every eye will see Him return to Earth in flaming fire, with clouds (Rev. 1:7; 2 Thess. 1:8).
Jesus is God and time is no barrier for God. He is the Alpha and the Omega, so it is not really a big problem for Jesus to be in two places at one time.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
John 6:51 ---> "I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever; and the bread that I will give, is my flesh, for the life of the world."
I suppose those who reject the words of Jesus must think it is just an incredible coincidence that God entered into His creation in a town called Bethlehem, which means "House of Bread", was laid in a manger, which is a feeding troth, and then went on to enter into His passion ushering in the new covenant with these words...
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'" (Mt. 26:26-28)
The sixth chapter of St. John's Gospel beautifully foreshadows the Eucharist. Yet there is another foreshadowing of the Eucharist that often goes unnoticed: the multiplication of the loves and fishes. This account is recorded in all four Gospels, but St. Matthew's contains the most beautiful Eucharistic imagery. Here is his version:
"So, when he disembarked, he found a great multitude there, and he took pity on them, and healed those who were sick. And now it was evening, and his disciples came to him and said, 'This is a lonely place, and it is past the accustomed hour; give the multitudes leave to go into the villages and buy themselves food there.' But Jesus told them, 'There is no need for them to go away; it is for you to give them food to eat.' They answered, 'We have nothing with us, except five loaves and twoh fishes.' 'Bring them to me here,' he said; then he told the multitudes to sit down on the grass, and when the five loaves and the two fishes were brought to him he looked up to heaven, blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to his disciples; and the disciples gave them to the multitude. All ate and had enough, and when they picked up what was left of the broken pieces they filled twelve baskets with them; about five thousand men had eaten, not reckoning women and children. As soon as this was done, he prevailed upon his disciples to take ship and cross to the other side before him, leaving him to send the multitudes home." - Matthew 14:14-22
St. Matthew's account foreshadows the Eucharist...
The “great multitude” --> All men
“And now it was evening” --> In the evening, the sun is going down, but the great multitude still has the true light with them
“There is no need for them to go away” --> Christ knows what they truly hunger for
“You give them food to eat” --> Foreshadowing the food these men (the Apostles and their successors) would go on to give the world
“Bring them here to me” --> It is Himself with which Christ will ultimately feed the great multitudes
“Sit down on the grass” --> In the desert we find grass, signifying the season of spring where life is present / the season of Passover
“Five loaves and two fishes” --> 5+2 = 7 = the number of completion
“Looked up to heaven, blessed and broke the loaves” --> The loaves, foreshadows exactly what happens at the start of the Passion at the Last Supper (cf. Matt 26:26)
“And gave them (the loaves) to the disciples; then the disciples gave them to the multitudes” --> the Eucharistic offering / He gives to the disciples and they in turn take it to the multitudes
“All ate and had enough” --> Only Christ Himself can truly satisfy man
“They picked up what was left of the broken pieces they filled twelve baskets” --> The foreshadowing of the superabundance of the Eucharist / Christ Himself satisfies / Prefiguring the reverence to be paid to the Eucharistic bread
“He prevailed upon his disciples to take ship and cross to the other side before him, leaving him to send the multitudes home” --> The disciples enter the ship, the symbol of the Church / Jesus stays with the crowd / The crowd now has Him after eating the bread
This account is relayed in each of the four Gospels. However, in St. Mark's account, immediately after this event, Jesus appears to the disciples who departed (still on the boat) by walking on water to them. The Apostles are frightened, thinking they are witnessing a ghost. St. Mark says something beautiful: They were frightened because "they had not grasped the lesson of the loaves." (cf. Mk 6:52)
It's amazing how many here are frightened of the Truth, because they do not grasp the lesson of the loaves.
I suppose those who reject the words of Jesus must think it is just an incredible coincidence that God entered into His creation in a town called Bethlehem, which means "House of Bread", was laid in a manger, which is a feeding troth, and then went on to enter into His passion ushering in the new covenant with these words...
"And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.'" (Mt. 26:26-28)
The sixth chapter of St. John's Gospel beautifully foreshadows the Eucharist. Yet there is another foreshadowing of the Eucharist that often goes unnoticed: the multiplication of the loves and fishes. This account is recorded in all four Gospels, but St. Matthew's contains the most beautiful Eucharistic imagery. Here is his version:
"So, when he disembarked, he found a great multitude there, and he took pity on them, and healed those who were sick. And now it was evening, and his disciples came to him and said, 'This is a lonely place, and it is past the accustomed hour; give the multitudes leave to go into the villages and buy themselves food there.' But Jesus told them, 'There is no need for them to go away; it is for you to give them food to eat.' They answered, 'We have nothing with us, except five loaves and twoh fishes.' 'Bring them to me here,' he said; then he told the multitudes to sit down on the grass, and when the five loaves and the two fishes were brought to him he looked up to heaven, blessed and broke the loaves, and gave them to his disciples; and the disciples gave them to the multitude. All ate and had enough, and when they picked up what was left of the broken pieces they filled twelve baskets with them; about five thousand men had eaten, not reckoning women and children. As soon as this was done, he prevailed upon his disciples to take ship and cross to the other side before him, leaving him to send the multitudes home." - Matthew 14:14-22
St. Matthew's account foreshadows the Eucharist...
The “great multitude” --> All men
“And now it was evening” --> In the evening, the sun is going down, but the great multitude still has the true light with them
“There is no need for them to go away” --> Christ knows what they truly hunger for
“You give them food to eat” --> Foreshadowing the food these men (the Apostles and their successors) would go on to give the world
“Bring them here to me” --> It is Himself with which Christ will ultimately feed the great multitudes
“Sit down on the grass” --> In the desert we find grass, signifying the season of spring where life is present / the season of Passover
“Five loaves and two fishes” --> 5+2 = 7 = the number of completion
“Looked up to heaven, blessed and broke the loaves” --> The loaves, foreshadows exactly what happens at the start of the Passion at the Last Supper (cf. Matt 26:26)
“And gave them (the loaves) to the disciples; then the disciples gave them to the multitudes” --> the Eucharistic offering / He gives to the disciples and they in turn take it to the multitudes
“All ate and had enough” --> Only Christ Himself can truly satisfy man
“They picked up what was left of the broken pieces they filled twelve baskets” --> The foreshadowing of the superabundance of the Eucharist / Christ Himself satisfies / Prefiguring the reverence to be paid to the Eucharistic bread
“He prevailed upon his disciples to take ship and cross to the other side before him, leaving him to send the multitudes home” --> The disciples enter the ship, the symbol of the Church / Jesus stays with the crowd / The crowd now has Him after eating the bread
This account is relayed in each of the four Gospels. However, in St. Mark's account, immediately after this event, Jesus appears to the disciples who departed (still on the boat) by walking on water to them. The Apostles are frightened, thinking they are witnessing a ghost. St. Mark says something beautiful: They were frightened because "they had not grasped the lesson of the loaves." (cf. Mk 6:52)
It's amazing how many here are frightened of the Truth, because they do not grasp the lesson of the loaves.
H e would be in the Incarnation, as he assumed fleshly limitations, so right then was stuck in just HIs physical body!
Walpole
Well-Known Member
This post demonstrates my assertion that most heresies stem from a lack of understanding of the Incarnation. When God became man, he did not become "stuck in just His physical body!" He did not leave heaven empty, like an empty room, trapping Himself on earth. Nor was God shaved or whittled down to human proportions, stuck in a human body.
Rather, Christ is God who dwelt among us in the flesh. There is a beautiful hymn entitled, Verbum Supernum, and its opening line beautifully captures the mystery of the Incarnation (and the Trinity, which imply one another)...
"Verbum supernum prodiens, nec Patris linquens dexteram..." ---> "The heavenly Word proceeding forth, yet not leaving the Father's side..."
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Among John Wycliffe’s many ‘heretical’ opinions was that of calling worship of the consecrated ‘transubstantiated’ host the abomination of desolation as cited by Christ, Matthew 24:15:
When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand (Douay-Rheims).
In his classic treatise, Wycliffe’s Wicket, the Oxford scholar explains the reference to that of Daniel 11:31, which prophesied the setting up of the pagan god, Jupiter Olympius, in the Jewish Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes, a forerunner of the Antichrist.
Wycliffe understood Christ’s warning to speak to a future age, when an equally blasphemous sacrilege was to take place in the Christian Church: the sacrifice of the Mass, whereby bread is worshipped as God…..a god whom the early Church Fathers knew not.
Wycliffe recounts in Acts 17 similar idolatrous worship was seen by Paul when he visited Athens:
Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. [The Greek literally reads, ‘you are demon worshippers.’] They, like their modern counterparts, Roman Catholics, worship a god they do not know.
To Wycliffe, Paul’s admonition to the Corinthian Church against the practice of sacrificing as do the pagans is apropos to the Roman Church. For their sacrifices are to demons, not to God (1 Cor. 10:20).
Additionally, Wycliffe explains how the doctrine of Transubstantiation contradicts the very creedal positions of the Catholic Church:
(1) We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end (The Nicene Creed).
(2) Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate (The Athanasian Creed).
In the Nicene Creed we are taught Christ remains in Heaven until His Second Advent. The Athanasian Creed emphasizes the eternity of the Son of God who is neither created nor made.
Wycliffe then asks, “How is it you, an earthly man, claims to make thy Maker? Can the thing made say to its Maker, Why hast thou made me thus? Or may it turn again and make Him that made it? Answer me. For you say every day thou makest from bread the body of the Lord; flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, God and man.”
Wycliffe compares the Roman Catholic hierarchy to that of the Jews in Christ’s day. They both mistake metaphors as signifying that which is literal. “Have you not read John 2 when Christ came into the Temple, they asked of him what token he would show that they might believe him. And he answered unto them, Cast down this temple and in three days I shall raise it again. These words were fulfilled in his rising again from death….but they were deceived, for they understood it carnally of the Jerusalem Temple…….[Similarly, the Roman Church] has a carnal understanding of the bread Christ broke among His disciples.”
He goes on to say, “On this false understanding they make abomination of desolation as said by Daniel the Prophet, chapter 11; and Mathew 24; standing in the holy place, he that readeth let him understand. Now therefore we pray heartily to God that this evil time be made short for the chosen men, as he promised in his blessed gospel Matthew 24. And the large and broad way that leadeth to perdition may be stopped, and the straight and narrow way [‘wicket’] that leadeth to bliss may be made open by holy scriptures, that we may know which is the will of God to serve him in sincerity and holiness in the fear of God, that we may find by him a way of everlasting bliss.”
When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand (Douay-Rheims).
In his classic treatise, Wycliffe’s Wicket, the Oxford scholar explains the reference to that of Daniel 11:31, which prophesied the setting up of the pagan god, Jupiter Olympius, in the Jewish Temple by Antiochus Epiphanes, a forerunner of the Antichrist.
Wycliffe understood Christ’s warning to speak to a future age, when an equally blasphemous sacrilege was to take place in the Christian Church: the sacrifice of the Mass, whereby bread is worshipped as God…..a god whom the early Church Fathers knew not.
Wycliffe recounts in Acts 17 similar idolatrous worship was seen by Paul when he visited Athens:
Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are too superstitious. [The Greek literally reads, ‘you are demon worshippers.’] They, like their modern counterparts, Roman Catholics, worship a god they do not know.
To Wycliffe, Paul’s admonition to the Corinthian Church against the practice of sacrificing as do the pagans is apropos to the Roman Church. For their sacrifices are to demons, not to God (1 Cor. 10:20).
Additionally, Wycliffe explains how the doctrine of Transubstantiation contradicts the very creedal positions of the Catholic Church:
(1) We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God, begotten not made, one in being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven;
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end (The Nicene Creed).
(2) Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate (The Athanasian Creed).
In the Nicene Creed we are taught Christ remains in Heaven until His Second Advent. The Athanasian Creed emphasizes the eternity of the Son of God who is neither created nor made.
Wycliffe then asks, “How is it you, an earthly man, claims to make thy Maker? Can the thing made say to its Maker, Why hast thou made me thus? Or may it turn again and make Him that made it? Answer me. For you say every day thou makest from bread the body of the Lord; flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, God and man.”
Wycliffe compares the Roman Catholic hierarchy to that of the Jews in Christ’s day. They both mistake metaphors as signifying that which is literal. “Have you not read John 2 when Christ came into the Temple, they asked of him what token he would show that they might believe him. And he answered unto them, Cast down this temple and in three days I shall raise it again. These words were fulfilled in his rising again from death….but they were deceived, for they understood it carnally of the Jerusalem Temple…….[Similarly, the Roman Church] has a carnal understanding of the bread Christ broke among His disciples.”
He goes on to say, “On this false understanding they make abomination of desolation as said by Daniel the Prophet, chapter 11; and Mathew 24; standing in the holy place, he that readeth let him understand. Now therefore we pray heartily to God that this evil time be made short for the chosen men, as he promised in his blessed gospel Matthew 24. And the large and broad way that leadeth to perdition may be stopped, and the straight and narrow way [‘wicket’] that leadeth to bliss may be made open by holy scriptures, that we may know which is the will of God to serve him in sincerity and holiness in the fear of God, that we may find by him a way of everlasting bliss.”
Now why should Wycliffe be believed over the Early Fathers of the Church and the other theologians down through the ages who have an opposite viewpoint on this issue? One man over all the others - I don't think so.
Walpole
Well-Known Member
St. Thomas Aquinas anticipated arguments like Wycliffe's a hundred years prior to Wycliffe and destroys it...
Objection 3. Further, no body can be in several places at the one time. For this does not even belong to an angel; since for the same reason it could be everywhere. But Christ's is a true body, and it is in heave. Consequently, it seems that it is not in very truth in the sacrament of the altar, but only as in a sign.
Reply to Objection 3. Christ's body is not in this sacrament in the same way as a body is in a place, which by its dimensions is commensurate with the place; but in a special manner which is proper to this sacrament. Hence we say that Christ's body is upon many altars, not as in different places, but "sacramentally": and thereby we do not understand that Christ is there only as in a sign, although a sacrament is a kind of sign; but that Christ's body is here after a fashion proper to this sacrament, as stated above.
ST, III, Q.75, A.1
---> Christ remains at the Father’s right hand. He is present to us in the Eucharist not by way of local presence but sacramentally.
The reason for the Eucharist and the reason for the Incarnation are identical. To deny the former is to reject the latter. God is Emmanuel, not Hester Panim.
This is Christianity 101.
Objection 3. Further, no body can be in several places at the one time. For this does not even belong to an angel; since for the same reason it could be everywhere. But Christ's is a true body, and it is in heave. Consequently, it seems that it is not in very truth in the sacrament of the altar, but only as in a sign.
Reply to Objection 3. Christ's body is not in this sacrament in the same way as a body is in a place, which by its dimensions is commensurate with the place; but in a special manner which is proper to this sacrament. Hence we say that Christ's body is upon many altars, not as in different places, but "sacramentally": and thereby we do not understand that Christ is there only as in a sign, although a sacrament is a kind of sign; but that Christ's body is here after a fashion proper to this sacrament, as stated above.
ST, III, Q.75, A.1
---> Christ remains at the Father’s right hand. He is present to us in the Eucharist not by way of local presence but sacramentally.
The reason for the Eucharist and the reason for the Incarnation are identical. To deny the former is to reject the latter. God is Emmanuel, not Hester Panim.
This is Christianity 101.
Protestant
Well-Known Member
Thomas Becon, D.D., (died 1567), Chaplain to Archbishop Cranmer and Protestant preacher whose copious writings reflect orthodox Reformation values and teachings, felt compelled to write an extensive dissertation entitled, The Displaying of the Popish Mass.
It was his hope and prayer that God “now at the last, through the riches of his mercy, might bring you [mass priests] into the glorious light of his blessed gospel, and make you of Sauls Pauls, of ravening wolves faithful shepherds, of cruel persecutors Christian preachers, of abominable idolaters true worshippers of God, that by this means ye may believe and be saved; I will attempt even for your sakes even to the uttermost of my power, as time shall serve, to declare to you my mind concerning the great abuse, yea, the abominable idolatry which ye commit in the most wicked and devilish mass, while ye take upon you contrary to the word of God to defile the blessed sacrament of Christ’s body and blood; to minister it in your masses unto yourself alone [private mass], contrary to Christ’s institution; to offer it a sacrifice unto God for the sins of the quick and the dead; to avouch it to be no less excellency, price, dignity, efficacy, might, virtue, and power than the sacrifice which our Saviour Christ offered on the altar of the cross; and to make a show of it to the people, that they may fall down and worship it as a god, yea, God himself, Creator and Maker of all things; that ye, having a knowledge of these your errors, may from henceforth cease to offend the Lord our God, give over your idolatrous massing, repent of your former life, and become godly ministers in the church of Christ, unto the glory of God and the profit of his holy congregation.”
Becon Compares Worship of Bread to the Worship by Idolaters of Old
“Ye say the sacrament of the altar is God and man in form of bread, and therefore it cannot have too much reverence, worship, and honour given unto it. I answer: It is sooner said than proved. As the old idolaters in times past had gods of their own making, and worshipped them; so have ye a god of your own devising, which ye yourselves worship, and compel others to do likewise. And as the old idolatrous priests, by boasting the dignity of their feigned gods whom they served, lived an idle and voluptuous life, and were fed of the painful labours of other men’s hands; so likewise ye new idolaters and priests of Baal set forth the majesty, excellency, dignity and worthiness of your new-baken little great god, that by this means ye may be had in admiration among the foolish simple idiots, and be nourished by the sweat of other men’s brows……..
“A wonderful god it is that ye set forth to the people to be worshipped. Not many days past it was corn in the ploughman’s barn; afterward the miller ground it to meal; then the baker, mingling a little water with it, made dough of it, and with a pair of hot printing-irons baked it. Now at the last come you, blustering and blowing, and with a few words spoken over it, ye charm the bread….and of the little thin cake ye make the very same body of Christ that was born of Mary the virgin, and who died for us upon the altar of the cross, the bread being turned into the natural flesh of Christ, and the accidents [which we see, touch, smell and taste] only remaining, according to the doctrine of Pope Nicholas and Pope Innocent. O wonderful creators and makers! O wonderful fathers which beget a child older than the father! And after ye have made him, ye tear him to pieces, ye eat him, ye digest him, and send him down to a very homely place. O cruel and unmerciful fathers, so to handle your poor young old child!"
[Becon then goes into a long dissertation explaining the intricate and absurd rituals and prayers included in the Mass, all of which are the inventions of carnal men, having no semblance to the simple supper of the Lord.]
Becon Exposes the Hypocrisy of Sinful Priests Who Refuse to Allow their Congregants to Take the Hosts for Themselves
[Christ handed the bread to His disciples for them to take and eat, but the mass priests place the host into the gaping mouths of their congregants.] “Hands off, say ye papists: gape and we will put it in your mouths, and feed you as children feed their pet birds. Handle so precious a relic? God forbid! The woman may have lain with her husband all night, or the husband with his wife; and shall such touch the precious body of our Lord with their hands? God forbid! But ye abominable whore-masters, ye filthy fornicators, ye stinking Sodomites, ye deceitful deflowerers of maids, ye devilish defilers of men’s wives, ye cancered corrupters of widows, and ye lecherous locusts, may lie with your whores and harlots all night, and the next day go to mass, consecrate, make, touch, handle, break, eat and devour your god; and yet you defile the sacrament nothing at all……."
Becon Reminds Us Evil Cannot Command that which is Holy
“A stinking Sodomite or a wicked whoremonger, being dressed in his fool’s coat, and standing at an altar with a little thin round cake in his hand and with these five words, Hoc est enim corpus meum, and with blowing and breathing on the bread, make Christ, the King of glory, to come from the right hand of the Father, and to couch himself in the accidents of the little cake, till ye have eaten him, and then trudge up again to Heaven, till Hoc est enim corpus meum fetch him down again, if your doctrine be true. O proud Lucifers! And poor wretched Christ who at every massmonger’s commandment is compelled to come down from the glorious throne of thy Majesty, and to be handled as the papists please, either to be torn asunder with their teeth, or else to be hanged up with a halter in their popish pix!
“But know ye, O ye vile and blasphemous papists, that although ye whisper your five words never so oft at your idolatrous altars, and breath, blast and blow, till ye be windless, yet shall ye never pluck the Son of God from the right hand of the Father, nor make that thin cake of yours Christ’s natural body.”
It was his hope and prayer that God “now at the last, through the riches of his mercy, might bring you [mass priests] into the glorious light of his blessed gospel, and make you of Sauls Pauls, of ravening wolves faithful shepherds, of cruel persecutors Christian preachers, of abominable idolaters true worshippers of God, that by this means ye may believe and be saved; I will attempt even for your sakes even to the uttermost of my power, as time shall serve, to declare to you my mind concerning the great abuse, yea, the abominable idolatry which ye commit in the most wicked and devilish mass, while ye take upon you contrary to the word of God to defile the blessed sacrament of Christ’s body and blood; to minister it in your masses unto yourself alone [private mass], contrary to Christ’s institution; to offer it a sacrifice unto God for the sins of the quick and the dead; to avouch it to be no less excellency, price, dignity, efficacy, might, virtue, and power than the sacrifice which our Saviour Christ offered on the altar of the cross; and to make a show of it to the people, that they may fall down and worship it as a god, yea, God himself, Creator and Maker of all things; that ye, having a knowledge of these your errors, may from henceforth cease to offend the Lord our God, give over your idolatrous massing, repent of your former life, and become godly ministers in the church of Christ, unto the glory of God and the profit of his holy congregation.”
Becon Compares Worship of Bread to the Worship by Idolaters of Old
“Ye say the sacrament of the altar is God and man in form of bread, and therefore it cannot have too much reverence, worship, and honour given unto it. I answer: It is sooner said than proved. As the old idolaters in times past had gods of their own making, and worshipped them; so have ye a god of your own devising, which ye yourselves worship, and compel others to do likewise. And as the old idolatrous priests, by boasting the dignity of their feigned gods whom they served, lived an idle and voluptuous life, and were fed of the painful labours of other men’s hands; so likewise ye new idolaters and priests of Baal set forth the majesty, excellency, dignity and worthiness of your new-baken little great god, that by this means ye may be had in admiration among the foolish simple idiots, and be nourished by the sweat of other men’s brows……..
“A wonderful god it is that ye set forth to the people to be worshipped. Not many days past it was corn in the ploughman’s barn; afterward the miller ground it to meal; then the baker, mingling a little water with it, made dough of it, and with a pair of hot printing-irons baked it. Now at the last come you, blustering and blowing, and with a few words spoken over it, ye charm the bread….and of the little thin cake ye make the very same body of Christ that was born of Mary the virgin, and who died for us upon the altar of the cross, the bread being turned into the natural flesh of Christ, and the accidents [which we see, touch, smell and taste] only remaining, according to the doctrine of Pope Nicholas and Pope Innocent. O wonderful creators and makers! O wonderful fathers which beget a child older than the father! And after ye have made him, ye tear him to pieces, ye eat him, ye digest him, and send him down to a very homely place. O cruel and unmerciful fathers, so to handle your poor young old child!"
[Becon then goes into a long dissertation explaining the intricate and absurd rituals and prayers included in the Mass, all of which are the inventions of carnal men, having no semblance to the simple supper of the Lord.]
Becon Exposes the Hypocrisy of Sinful Priests Who Refuse to Allow their Congregants to Take the Hosts for Themselves
[Christ handed the bread to His disciples for them to take and eat, but the mass priests place the host into the gaping mouths of their congregants.] “Hands off, say ye papists: gape and we will put it in your mouths, and feed you as children feed their pet birds. Handle so precious a relic? God forbid! The woman may have lain with her husband all night, or the husband with his wife; and shall such touch the precious body of our Lord with their hands? God forbid! But ye abominable whore-masters, ye filthy fornicators, ye stinking Sodomites, ye deceitful deflowerers of maids, ye devilish defilers of men’s wives, ye cancered corrupters of widows, and ye lecherous locusts, may lie with your whores and harlots all night, and the next day go to mass, consecrate, make, touch, handle, break, eat and devour your god; and yet you defile the sacrament nothing at all……."
Becon Reminds Us Evil Cannot Command that which is Holy
“A stinking Sodomite or a wicked whoremonger, being dressed in his fool’s coat, and standing at an altar with a little thin round cake in his hand and with these five words, Hoc est enim corpus meum, and with blowing and breathing on the bread, make Christ, the King of glory, to come from the right hand of the Father, and to couch himself in the accidents of the little cake, till ye have eaten him, and then trudge up again to Heaven, till Hoc est enim corpus meum fetch him down again, if your doctrine be true. O proud Lucifers! And poor wretched Christ who at every massmonger’s commandment is compelled to come down from the glorious throne of thy Majesty, and to be handled as the papists please, either to be torn asunder with their teeth, or else to be hanged up with a halter in their popish pix!
“But know ye, O ye vile and blasphemous papists, that although ye whisper your five words never so oft at your idolatrous altars, and breath, blast and blow, till ye be windless, yet shall ye never pluck the Son of God from the right hand of the Father, nor make that thin cake of yours Christ’s natural body.”
Now why should Becon be believed over the Early Fathers of the Church and the other theologians down through the ages who have an opposite viewpoint on this issue? One man over all the others - I don't think so.
Becon was nothing more than a hateful, vile, and rabid anti-Catholic person of his day. So much for following the love towards others and the forgiveness that one man called Jesus Christ preached. It is clear that by the posting of such a diatribe, you are in line with Becon instead of Jesus. Sad, so sad.
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Walpole
Well-Known Member
Not only was he a rabid anti-Catholic, he was also a rabid anti-anabaptist! O the irony of a Baptist appealing to someone simply because he was anti-Catholic, without doing their homework to learn he was also anti-Baptist. He called the anabaptists a "most damnable sect", "bloody murderers, both of souls and bodies", "wicked" and "of the devil their father". (The Catechism of Thomas Becon, Of the Sacraments - Baptism)
This is a good example of "When Control-V Paste Jobs from Internet Blogs Go Bad".