How to Know You are in a Heterodox Cult

[Protestant]

Is worship on a certain day called ‘The Sabbath’ necessary to salvation, though it occurs on a day dedicated to worship the Roman god, Saturn?

Is honor and glory given to the Protestant Reformers for correctly identifying the Papal Antichrist, while at the same time damning them to Hell for taking the Mark of the Beast, Sunday worship?

Is worshipping a God whose name is not Jesus Christ necessary to salvation?

Does your fellowship deny the Deity of Christ, as well as the Trinity, yet take great pride in using the Greek text from Westcott & Hort, though they were both orthodox in their Christology, as well as Trinitarians denying the New World Translation, “the Word was a god?”

Is the worship of a bread god necessary to salvation?

Do you eat your god?

Are prayers, petitions and hope directed to the dead?

Do members of your fellowship have visitations of the Virgin Mary, and are they always illiterate children and women who never opened a Bible?

Does your fellowship insist Mary is the Mother of God, though the Son is only-begotten of the Father?

Does your founder claim to have met ‘God’ as a boy, yet cannot remember if it was God the Father alone or if Jesus Christ was with Him?

Does membership into your fellowship include superstitious undergarments and rituals performed in a Temple architecturally designed to integrate seamlessly into any Star Wars Trilogy?

If the answer is ‘Yes’ to any of these questions…….

 

[MarysSon]

Is worship on a certain day called ‘The Sabbath’ necessary to salvation, though it occurs on a day dedicated to worship the Roman god, Saturn?

Is honor and glory given to the Protestant Reformers for correctly identifying the Papal Antichrist, while at the same time damning them to Hell for taking the Mark of the Beast, Sunday worship?

Is worshipping a God whose name is not Jesus Christ necessary to salvation?

Does your fellowship deny the Deity of Christ, as well as the Trinity, yet take great pride in using the Greek text from Westcott & Hort, though they were both orthodox in their Christology, as well as Trinitarians denying the New World Translation, “the Word was a god?”

Is the worship of a bread god necessary to salvation?

Do you eat your god?

Are prayers, petitions and hope directed to the dead?

Do members of your fellowship have visitations of the Virgin Mary, and are they always illiterate children and women who never opened a Bible?

Does your fellowship insist Mary is the Mother of God, though the Son is only-begotten of the Father?

Does your founder claim to have met ‘God’ as a boy, yet cannot remember if it was God the Father alone or if Jesus Christ was with Him?

Does membership into your fellowship include superstitious undergarments and rituals performed in a Temple architecturally designed to integrate seamlessly into any Star Wars Trilogy?

If the answer is ‘Yes’ to any of these questions…….

Yet another moronic, thinly-veiled attack on the Catholic Church.
Unfortunately - it's also woefully-ignorant.

I'll just address the anti-Catholic attacks - as some of them are anti-SDA/Sabbatarian/Mormon, etc. attacks.

Is the worship of a bread god necessary to salvation?

The Eucharist is not a "bread-god". It is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ - per CHRIST Himself (John 6:54-58, Luke 22:19–20; Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Corinthians 11:23–25).

Do you eat your god?

Jesus commands us to eat His flesh (true food) and drink His blood (true drink) (John 6:54-58).

Are prayers, petitions and hope directed to the dead?

Asking a member of the Body of Christ to pray for us is Scriptural (James 5:16). NOWHERE are we told that they cannot pray for us. Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in Heaven taking our prayers to God and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels doing the SAME thing.

Do members of your fellowship have visitations of the Virgin Mary, and are they always illiterate children and women who never opened a Bible?

Show me ONE verse in the Bible that says a person must be a Bible scholar as a prerequisite to seeing a vision.
Chapter and Verse, please. MY Bible says the following:
Acts 2:17
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams."

Does your fellowship insist Mary is the Mother of God, though the Son is only-begotten of the Father?

SCRIPTURE tells me that Mary is the mother of Jesus, who is God. (John 2:1, John 19:25)
If YOU are claiming He is NOT God - then YOU are in heresy.

You simply don't know your Bible.
When Mary went to visit Elizabeth, the Scriptures tell us:
Luke 1:41-43
And Elizabeth WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that THE MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?

The Holy Spirit (GOD) put these words in her mouth.
YOUR denial of this fact is not only heresy - it's blasphemy.

Next time - do your HOMEWORK . . .

 

[Yeshua1]

Yet another moronic, thinly-veiled attack on the Catholic Church.
Unfortunately - it's also woefully-ignorant.

I'll just address the anti-Catholic attacks - as some of them are anti-SDA/Sabbatarian/Mormon, etc. attacks.

The Eucharist is not a "bread-god". It is the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ - per CHRIST Himself (John 6:54-58, Luke 22:19–20; Matthew 26:26–28; Mark 14:22–24; 1 Corinthians 11:23–25).

Jesus commands us to eat His flesh (true food) and drink His blood (true drink) (John 6:54-58).

Asking a member of the Body of Christ to pray for us is Scriptural (James 5:16). NOWHERE are we told that they cannot pray for us. Rev. 5:8 shows the Elders in Heaven taking our prayers to God and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels doing the SAME thing.

Show me ONE verse in the Bible that says a person must be a Bible scholar as a prerequisite to seeing a vision.
Chapter and Verse, please. MY Bible says the following:
Acts 2:17
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh, and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams."

SCRIPTURE tells me that Mary is the mother of Jesus, who is God. (John 2:1, John 19:25)
If YOU are claiming He is NOT God - then YOU are in heresy.

You simply don't know your Bible.
When Mary went to visit Elizabeth, the Scriptures tell us:
Luke 1:41-43
And Elizabeth WAS FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT, and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted to me that THE MOTHER OF MY LORD should come to me?

The Holy Spirit (GOD) put these words in her mouth.
YOUR denial of this fact is not only heresy - it's blasphemy.

Next time - do your HOMEWORK . . .

Rome denies pauline Justification, as teaches another Gospel!

 

[Walpole]

I always found it odd that those who profess to believe that God was present in a box making its way across the wilderness, took the form of a cloud, took the form of a dove, and even became an actual man entering into His creation as a baby, cannot bring themselves to believe that this same God would be present amongst His people in the Eucharist.


Jesus Christ, whom you have mockingly called the "bread God", entered into His creation in the city named the House of Bread (Bethlehem), was laid in a feeding troth (manger) and said His very flesh was the true bread from heaven...

"I am the bread of life...and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." - Jesus Christ

You mock what you do not understand. (cf. John 6:52) Perhaps one day the scales will fall from your eyes and you too will recognize Him in the breaking of the bread. (cf. Luke 24:35)

 

[Yeshua1]

I always found it odd that those who profess to believe that God was present in a box making its way across the wilderness, took the form of a cloud, took the form of a dove, and even became an actual man entering into His creation as a baby, cannot bring themselves to believe that this same God would be present amongst His people in the Eucharist.


Jesus Christ, whom you have mockingly called the "bread God", entered into His creation in the city named the House of Bread (Bethlehem), was laid in a feeding troth (manger) and said His very flesh was the true bread from heaven...

"I am the bread of life...and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." - Jesus Christ

You mock what you do not understand. (cf. John 6:52) Perhaps one day the scales will fall from your eyes and you too will recognize Him in the breaking of the bread. (cf. Luke 24:35)

Rome totally confuses the spiritual meaning and gives to it a literal physical one!

 

[JonShaff]

I always found it odd that those who profess to believe that God was present in a box making its way across the wilderness, took the form of a cloud, took the form of a dove, and even became an actual man entering into His creation as a baby, cannot bring themselves to believe that this same God would be present amongst His people in the Eucharist.


Jesus Christ, whom you have mockingly called the "bread God", entered into His creation in the city named the House of Bread (Bethlehem), was laid in a feeding troth (manger) and said His very flesh was the true bread from heaven...

"I am the bread of life...and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world." - Jesus Christ

You mock what you do not understand. (cf. John 6:52) Perhaps one day the scales will fall from your eyes and you too will recognize Him in the breaking of the bread. (cf. Luke 24:35)

All of those things you mentioned in the Old Testament were types and shadows of the things to come. Christ is the fulfillment of those things. He is not going to return back into a type or shadow. That's going backwards. Read Hebrews 1.

 

[Walpole]

All of those things you mentioned in the Old Testament were types and shadows of the things to come. Christ is the fulfillment of those things. He is not going to return back into a type or shadow. That's going backwards. Read Hebrews 1.

Bingo!

In Christianity, the reality of something always surpasses the type / figure / shadow of it. In other words, throughout salvation history, the type / figure / shadow in the Old Testament always points to the reality revealed in the New Testament. If the Eucharist is not the body and blood of our Christ, it would be the first time in all of salvation history where the figure / type / shadow of something would have surpassed the reality of it.


Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the old covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new ---> The Upper Room, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Christ as the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God.

 

[MarysSon]

Rome denies pauline Justification, as teaches another Gospel!

A claim you've made about a DOZEN times now - with ZERO evidence.

Nice job, sparky . . .

 

[MarysSon]

Rome totally confuses the spiritual meaning and gives to it a literal physical one!

More Scriptural and linguistic ignorance.
Time for another Bible and language lesson . . .

In 1 Cor. 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol.

This directly correlates to the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, where Jesus stated in NO uncertain terms: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

Now, the usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”. However, this is NOT the word used in these passages. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal. Jesus was using hyperbole as he often did to drive his point across so that the crowd would understand that he was NOT speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.
Just as the Passover Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.

In verse 60, his disciples said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? No, he said: "Does this shock you?" He knew that some would not believe because they didn't have true faith from the Father. Maybe that's YOUR problem as well . . .

John 6:66 tells us that MANY of his disciples left Him that day and returned to their former way of life.
How's that working for ya??

 

[JonShaff]

Bingo!

In Christianity, the reality of something always surpasses the type / figure / shadow of it. In other words, throughout salvation history, the type / figure / shadow in the Old Testament always points to the reality revealed in the New Testament. If the Eucharist is not the body and blood of our Christ, it would be the first time in all of salvation history where the figure / type / shadow of something would have surpassed the reality of it.


Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the old covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new ---> The Upper Room, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Christ as the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God.

Sir, you are missing it here. Christ fulfilled them all. We do not need types and shadows any longer. God's presence is not in bread and wine--His presence is in Christ and Christ is in the people of God.

 

[Yeshua1]

A claim you've made about a DOZEN times now - with ZERO evidence.

Nice job, sparky . . .

Council of Trent stated that if any holds to Imputation of Grace, is damned!

 

[Yeshua1]

More Scriptural and linguistic ignorance.
Time for another Bible and language lesson . . .

In 1 Cor. 11:27-30, Paul speaks to the reality of the Eucharist and the severity of the consequences to those who take this lightly: “Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself. That is why many among you are ill and infirm, and a considerable number are dying.”

This is pretty harsh language for something that Protestants claim is only a symbol.

This directly correlates to the Bread of Life Discourse in John 6, where Jesus stated in NO uncertain terms: “Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.”

Now, the usual Greek word used for human eating is “phagon”. However, this is NOT the word used in these passages. John uses the word, “trogon”, which means, to munch or to gnaw - like an animal. Jesus was using hyperbole as he often did to drive his point across so that the crowd would understand that he was NOT speaking metaphorically. He meant what he said.
Just as the Passover Lamb was to be eaten, it is also true for the Lamb of God.

In verse 60, his disciples said, "This saying is hard; who can accept it?"
Did Jesus explain what he "really" meant? No, he said: "Does this shock you?" He knew that some would not believe because they didn't have true faith from the Father. Maybe that's YOUR problem as well . . .

John 6:66 tells us that MANY of his disciples left Him that day and returned to their former way of life.
How's that working for ya?to them getting drunk on wine before taking communion!?

Paul was talkiing about them being drunk on wine before taking communion...

 

[MarysSon]

Council of Trent stated that if any holds to Imputation of Grace, is damned!

This is a LIE.

An anathema is NOT damnation. It is ipso facto excommunication.

Excommunication is a BIBLICAL discipline designed to expel the unruly from the congregation and "deliver them to Satan", as Paul puts it, in the hope that they return to the fold (1 Cor. 5:5, 1 Tim. 1:20).

And the Council of Trent never denied justification per Paul's writings.

 

[MarysSon]

Paul was talkiing about them being drunk on wine before taking communion...

And what did he tell them??
He said about them receiving communion unworthily:

1 Cor. 11:27-29
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the BODY AND BLOOD OF THE LORD. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

For just eating bread and wine in a drunken state?

The KJV renders the word "judgement" in this verse as "Damnation".
They bring "Damnation" on themselves for eating bread while drunk??

Get REAL.

 

[Adonia]

Sir, you are missing it here. Christ fulfilled them all. We do not need types and shadows any longer. God's presence is not in bread and wine--His presence is in Christ and Christ is in the people of God.

So what was the point of having the Last Supper at all and then Jesus saying that "This is my body" and "This is my blood" if he wasn't thinking of his "Real Presence" in it? If what you say is true none of what happened was needed at all, Jesus could have just gone to his crucifixion and be done with it.

The denial of the "Real Presence" in the Holy Eucharist was made up after Luther by people who rebelled from him! Such a thing was without precedent and contrary to the belief's of 99.9% of all Christians up to that time. Such a teaching was and continues to remain an abomination before God!

 

[Walpole]

Sir, you are missing it here. Christ fulfilled them all. We do not need types and shadows any longer. God's presence is not in bread and wine--His presence is in Christ and Christ is in the people of God.

Sir, I think it is you who are "missing" it here. Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant by instituting the New Covenant...

Matthew 26:26-28 ---> "Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, 'Take, eat; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, 'Drink of it, all of you, for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'"

Mark 14:22-24 ---> "And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, 'Take; this is my body.' And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. And he said to them, 'This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.'"

Luke 22:19-22 ---> "And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, 'This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me' And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, 'This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.'"

Here is Paul quoting Jesus in 1 Cor 11;23-25 ---> "For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when he was betrayed took a loaf of bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, 'This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.' In the same way he took the cup also, after supper, saying, 'This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'”


Again, it is at this moment when the new Moses, Jesus Christ, fulfills the type / figure / shadow of the old covenant of Moses in Exodus with the new reality of the Eucharistic sacrifice...

Exodus 24 (The figure) ---> The hill, the altar, the twelve, the blood, Moses, the covenant, the eating the drinking and communion with God ---> Points to the reality of the new now being fulfilled by Jesus Christ ---> The Upper Room, the altar, the twelve, the blood, the New Moses, the new covenant, the eating and drinking and communion with God.


If the Eucharist is not the body and blood of our Christ, it would be the first time in all of salvation history where the figure / type / shadow of something would have surpassed the reality of it.

 

[Walter]

Rome denies pauline Justification, as teaches another Gospel!

No, as always, you are wrong

 

[JonShaff]

"Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.'”

I'll say this one last time. The Presence of God is in the People of God through the Holy Spirit of God. Not in bread and wine. I quoted the 1 Corinthians portion that you quoted. Jesus said to do it in remembrance of Him. That's pretty cut and dry. It's a reminder that His Blood and Body was given to bring a New Covenant.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Tradition is a stronghold on you for sure. So much so that you deny the plain teachings of Scripture.

 

[Walpole]

I'll say this one last time. The Presence of God is in the People of God through the Holy Spirit of God. Not in bread and wine. I quoted the 1 Corinthians portion that you quoted. Jesus said to do it in remembrance of Him. That's pretty cut and dry. It's a reminder that His Blood and Body was given to bring a New Covenant.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

Romans 8:9
You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.

Tradition is a stronghold on you for sure. So much so that you deny the plain teachings of Scripture.

And I'll say this one last time. Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. He is EMMANUEL...

"...do this for a commemoration of me." (Luke 22:19)

It is the Eucharistic sacrifice which perpetuates the saving sacrifice of the Cross. Thus, Christians are able to have a communion (communication) and participation (participation) with the body and blood of Christ Himself...

1 Cor 10:16 ---> "We have a cup that we bless; is not this cup we bless a participation (communicatio / κοινωνία - koinōnia) in Christ’s blood? Is not the bread we break a participation (participatio) in Christ’s body?"

---> Communion - κοινωνία (koinōnia) means: fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy

(Source)

Trying to have fellowship, association, community, communion, participation, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol is the height of idolatry because it is a false representation of who God is. It says God is but a symbol. It says it is not His body and blood. It says God is not present amongst His people. It says "He is not here". It says God is not Immanuel. It says God is Hester Panim.

Perhaps Protestant churches should have signs outside their buildings with the words the Angel greeted Mary Magdalene with on Easter morning: "He is not here."

Your tradition that "He is not here" is clearly a strong one for you, so much so that you deny the plain teachings of Scripture.

 

[JonShaff]

And I'll say this one last time. Jesus Christ is truly present in the Eucharist. He is EMMANUEL...

"...do this for a commemoration of me." (Luke 22:19)

It is the Eucharistic sacrifice which perpetuates the saving sacrifice of the Cross. Thus, Christians are able to have a communion (communication) and participation (participation) with the body and blood of Christ Himself...

1 Cor 10:16 ---> "We have a cup that we bless; is not this cup we bless a participation (communicatio / κοινωνία - koinōnia) in Christ’s blood? Is not the bread we break a participation (participatio) in Christ’s body?"

---> Communion - κοινωνία (koinōnia) means: fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse, intimacy

(Source)

Trying to have fellowship, association, community, communion, participation, intercourse and intimacy with a symbol is the height of idolatry because it is a false representation of who God is. It says God is but a symbol. It says it is not His body and blood. It says God is not present amongst His people. It says "He is not here". It says God is not Immanuel. It says God is Hester Panim.

Perhaps Protestant churches should have signs outside their buildings with the words the Angel greeted Mary Magdalene with on Easter morning: "He is not here."

Your tradition that "He is not here" is clearly a strong one for you, so much so that you deny the plain teachings of Scripture.

1 Corinthians 11 is talking about the fellowship of the Body of Christ--the people of God. Not people with bread. The Spirit of God lives in His people--He is present when we meet.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in your midst?

And back in 1 Cor. 11, Paul rebukes the believers at Corinth because they are not showing respect for the body (PEOPLE) of Christ because they are being rude and disrespectful to one another.

You seem to think God is in the bread and wine.

Scripture teaches, and i believe, that God is present in and among His people.