"How to Smoke Out a Calvinistic Pastor"

I agree one hundred percent. I'll add the preacher boy or man needs to lay himself out their also, but most of the blame goes to the search committee. But so many who are on such a committee are like so many when they buy a car, they believe everything the salesman has to say. Who would think a pastor would miss represent their self? As a friend of mine who has said many times and it makes me mad, anyone who has done business with many pastor.

 

One more note on this, Major B hit the nail on the head, "Having said that, as we discussed in a previous thread, a lot of this is to the blame of some Calvinist leaders who teach young Calvinist pastors to hide their doctrinal beliefs and "reform" their churches, subverting the doctrinal base these churches have often held for many years."

Blame is all the way around, anyone who teaches pastors how to hide their soteriology until they get enough on their side is wrong.

Anyone who goes out on a witch hunt to get rid of folks with a different soteriology but isn't causing division is wrong. I know of pastors who have brought good men into the church that they were serving and knew they had a different soteriology, and all worked out well in most cases.

Most people on search committee or should I say a lot are not qualified or know theology well enough to be there. That has a lot to say about the person and or the pastors and teachers which they have sat under.

From the churches that I go to over a year, I find less and less people in the pew who know or care much about theology. Many if not most would just as soon go to a Pentecostal church as a baptist church. Many of the churches that I go to have children of members who are pastors of Pentecostal churches. It is all about how one feels, or how it looks, or can't we just get along!

In most of the churches which I am in every year I would say most of the theology, soteriology or what ever does not make a difference to most of them in the pews. They can tell you so and so's batting average or how many yards he has gained or how many points he has scored or the top 10 hits in most fields of music but couldn't tell you if Jude is in the old or new testament or where Leviticus is and so on. We as parents have done a poor job training our children.

 

I don't think it's about "hiding" your belief. It's the fact that, thanks to groups like the one on the witch-hunt prowl, you have to be careful to use certain Shibboleths and stay away from other words and bow to certain idols in order to get by some of the search committees now-a-days, thanks to ignorance on their part and the ignorance of those who try to train them (denom leaders, etc.).

A friend who is premillenial (historic) now has to be very careful how he couches his view. Why? He presented himself as a premil but later taught that he believed in a post trib rapture, thus he was not a dispy. His head was on the chopping block for "lying about his eschatology" which he clearly didn't do. They just didn't know any better.

Bingo. One of the areas where we've failed is to remind people that Baptists are Calvinistic. We just are. Maybe some nuances are different here and there, but we are what we are. That's what makes this witch hunt so laughable yet sad all at once.

 

If the SBC keeps up its biting and devouring one another they will not have to worry about existing much longer.

Gal. 5:15, "But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another."

 

Tom, I believe you are wrong. Are there Calvinistic Baptist? Are there Baptist who are into Arminianism or Westlyism? Yes. Are there Baptist who aren't in any of those camps? Yes I even recall when Al Mohler wouldn't say what he was, not that many years ago.

I've had great fellowship with Christians in many camps and none of them hid what they were or did I to them. I never tried to tell them what they believed, I let them tell me what they believed. I don't dislike Calvinistic people, I just disagree with their teaching.

When I left the Presbyterian Church and became a Baptist, I left Calvinism as I was taught. As it was taught to me, I'm not even a one pointer. I had a dear friend tell me I had to believe in the perseverance of the saints. I believe my eternal security rest on God. After that he agreed with me that I wasn't even a one pointer. But I love all my Calvinistic friends and Christians in spite of their belief and they seem to do the same with me.

 

I am Baptist and not Calvinist :love2:

However I do find the behavior mentioned in the OP appalling. Does not the Bible warn about creating strife and contentions. Do these folks just tear out those pages? I'll never understand it. Yet I see it over and over.

 

My assertion is based on the belief that you seem to give a nod to - namely, that a traditional understanding of TULIP would find most Baptists Calvinistic in this vein. We believe we are not capable of saving ourselves. We believe we do not merit salvation. We believe this salvation is eternal. Right there, without blinking, you can find three of the points. I have a quote about this I'll have to find....it's far more definitive than my own, and I think it's from Paige.

I'd love to see a quote from Al where he backed off of what he "was." Of course, he's more into proclaiming truth than proclaiming himself IMHO, so I'd see why he wouldn't want to label himself. Seems rather silly. Which, goes to the point of the op and the utter foolishness of this behavior.

See above.

Yes. However, what they would say, and I understand, is that we should never back down from dividing over truth. I am thankful that there have been those among our forefathers who decided to divide over the truthfulness of the Word, the work of Christ, the essentials. It's when we get to "i" dotting and "t" crossing being a dividing mark that I get nervous. What's next? Purging the ____________ view of eschatology?

 

There has certainly been a run of it. In the 50s and following, the moderates tried to purge those who held to inerrancy, etc. In the 70-80s, we had the conservative movement. In the 90s and 00s, the Calvinists have stepped up and seen a backlash. I dunno where this will take us, especially as it seems now there will be lines drawn over the GCR.

 

If one takes a look at history and observes what happened over time with other groups that is a good predictor of what will happen in the SBC.

 

If I do not believe man can save himself or I believe that man does not merit salvation or I believe that salvation is eternal, why would I be considered a three-pointer. Calvin is not the originator of these beliefs, they are stated in scripture and were written hundreds of years before Calvin came along. I am glad that I follow no man and my Lord is Jesus Christ.

 

There most certainly will.

 

Calvin did codify these and adherents to these beliefs were traditionally (and are) called by a Calvinist label through history.

This is neither the theology or history forum, so we'll have to leave it there. If you want to explore it further, please do so there.

 

I'd love to talk about this more. If I don't start a thread about it, remind me or have at it yourself. It's an intriguing topic that is vitally important.