How to tell whether you are chosen

James, just name the point of Calvinism that you have difficulty with. You might be surprised at the number of people who also have difficulty with it. And, you might just find the thoughts that express how you feel regarding that point.

 

Wes.. you have shown you have a very tained view of the Bible. It maybe more tained then any on this forum. You do deal with things...and that is something....but i have yet to see you back down..even when faced with the truth. you deal with things by getting mad..calling names...saying words mean other things....

sorry man..but that is the way i see it.

i would never ask for bible truth from you. I see you only looking to prove "wes is right". I do not care if wes is right....if you make a good point...i'll take it. but no one cares if wes is right...other then wes.

now we have a few calvin people just like that wes. they too are wrong. this is not about me..nor you..it should be in looking for the truth.

If i'm wrong...i will change. I have done so in the past

let me say this..when faced with election...it took me 2-3 years to believe it.

it was there...i CAN READ you know..

what did election mean? well i read all kinds of books...most attacking calvin. but they always left BIG holes and used few verses. i read them to back my view of arminianism. it was not that i did not agree with arminianism.....i read to defeat the "evils of calvin".

yet..no bible was used in the right way...they would jump from doctrine of sin..to the doctrine of man..to the doctrine of what ever...to answer the doctrine of salvation. all would not deal with it. all was just a bunch of mans logic.

then i was explained to me as calvin meant it..not as arminiaism claims he meant it...and it made sence. The verses lined up...no holes...no twisting...calvin used the words for what they mean...and he did not add words. i saw no twisting...i saw nothing but the Bible. Now..i still did not give in. i was not about to give up MY freewill. but after 2-3 years...i had to. tthis was not calvins words...this was the bible.

in arminiaism..all i read was people trying to change the meaning ..just as you have been trained to do wes.

so grace does not mean grace to an arminian
election does not mean election for an arminian

if it does mean election...then it only means it part time..

like your view on eph 1

wes....to me ...let me be up front with you
on this passage.....reading what you wrote...i had never heard this...it was funny.....and kinda strange.

i know you really believe this...but wes...you always say context context. my statement is close..context is king

well...the context is OFF. the greek will not support you.

did you make this up? this is a new one to me

i did not make to much of the greek....but i pointed to other places in the Bible....like where election talks of others not on your list. like..the church. i posted verses calling the elect the church..nothing from you.

i mean to me..if you would have said..ok james..i do not know where those verse apply..but i still believe what i said. that wes..that would show you are looking for truth..and that shows more trust then making wes look good.

so i dropped it...

you are bent on proving you are right.

i would rather share with someone that cares more for the truth...and you have not proved to do this.

sorry wes...this is hard to read..and i'm sure you don't care anyway..because it is only a stupid calvin that is programmed to say this.

in short...i can not trust your input..so i will not ask for it.

but thanks

 

The PLAN of the LETTER
Salvation by Faith 1:16
I Justification 1:16
A The Retribution of God against Gentile and Jew 1:18, 3:20
B Faith and the Judgment of God 3:21\31
C The Example of Abraham
II Salvation 5
A Deliverance from Sin, Death and Law 5:12
B The Christian's Spiritual Life 8
C The Place of Israel 9
Exhortation 12:1, 15:13
Epilogue 15:14, 16:27 [/QUOTE]

wes..i think this outline overlooks many things.

but once again we will use it the way you see it.

if we go with this outline than verse 3:9 would be where paul is summing up his 1st point...and gathers it all together like this....

ok guys..we have look at at the gentile..(greeks)...and the jews....and ALL are in sin. None seek after God.

wes..no matter how you say it..it still has the same context

my very 1st post on CONTEXT said...
those under the law...
and
those without the law.

that is the same as what you said above..

"The Retribution of God against Gentile and Jew"
Gentile and Jew...this is all men

still, at the end..paul pulls it ALL together...both greek and jews...or Gentile and Jews.....or all men..
and says...no one seeks after God

this is the sum of it all. read and see if you agree

at this point i need to stop. i have said this 4 ways. you post notes saying the same thing..but add..it does not apply.

i see this as only a fight...and i'm not looking for a fight

but again..i feel my outline shows it better....
but..that is why i posted it...it is MY outline


In Christ...James

 

One thing I can tell you is that I am consistent. For the past three years of my posting on this bbs, no one has posted anything that makes me want to change from the truth as it is revealed in scripture. So thanks for the complement.

Sorry you see it that way, but how you see me is not my problem, it is yours.

Yes, I've met quite a few of them. It is my objective to maintain the truth of scripture as it is written in the scriptures.

We'll see.

I've been trying to for forty plus years, but cannot get past the truth in scripture, that while it remains in its context, it remains the truth. Kind of like Eph 2:8,9. The truth of Eph 2:8,9 is the Gift of God is that he saves men who have faith in Him while he is behaving in accordance with his grace.

I do not understand how, if you can read, that you insist on taking scriptures out of their context and making them say something they don't say IN CONTEXT.

What is the right way to use the bible? The original Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic were not divided by verse numbers, yet you insist on using numbered verses taken out of context to prove that what Calvinism says is the truth. I personally have difficulty with that approach to doctrine, because it is not honest before the throne of God.

"the verses lined up...no holes...etc," The verses taken out of their context can ONLY LINE UP with human doctrine, and not the other way around. If human doctrine doesn't parallel the bible, in more than selected numbered verses, it is not valid doctrine. It must parallel the whole thought that the verse was extracted from.

First, You presume that I "have been trained". Sorry to disappoint you that is not true. I will not attempt to argue the arminian view, because I do not know what it is, any more than I know all of what Calvinism is. I am not Arminian any more than I am Calvinist, and I believe that you recognize my opposition to Calvinism.

No Calvinist has come forward with a true definition of grace in which Grace does all that the Calvinist claims for it. Most Calvinist's say that grace can be given from one being to another, and that faith is likewise given to man by God. Yet, there is no scriptural or natural support for such.

This may surprise you but I actually believe in election, just not the way that Calvinist's believe in it.

Well then if you think my interpretation of Ephesians 2:8,9 is bogus, Why did you not answer the questions,
HOW is grace given and received? There must be a recognizable means for that to happen.
How is faith given and received? There must be a recognizable means for that to happen too?
HOW does Grace Save? There must be a recognizable means by which grace saves.

If you cannot provide those answers then the onus is on you to question Eph 2:8,9.

NO, I'm simply being a Beraean. And studying all of the scriptures to see if what Paul said is true, I find that if one takes that scripture literally, as you do, it is not consistent with the rest of scripture regarding the Gift of God. The gift of God is overwhelmingly described in scripture as Salvation/everlasting life, and salvation is given only to those who have (possess) faith.

Mostly because I have a job that I must attend to and can only post between spurts of work! Like I said earlier, I believe in election, just not as Calvinist's believe that it is.

Now you are telling me how I must respond to you? What gives with that? For your information, Wes is not interested in making wes look good, wes is quite secure and confident in his faith in God, he needs not attempt to make himself look good.

It's not a matter of whether I am right or wrong, it is a matter of what does scripture say.

It seems to me that you are the one interested in proving that what you believe is right. You are not interested in exploring that which does not conform to Calvinism. That is obvious by your posts.

 

ok wes....teach me. I have only seen your view on one thing. eph 1. this is where you said you based your election views.

you never said what the truth is in romans....tell me

how about other things that calvin teaches..post your views

all i have read is you blasting others...and saying...tell me about grace

lay out your plan...

what state do you find man before salvation?
what do you call it when man 1st hears about salvation?
what comes up on man so that he understands...or that he can now see the light? john 1


no need to post verse...just views. if i do not understand...i'll ask for a verse

one verse i would like to hear from you about..this is the 3rd time i asked...

when the church is called elect


In Christ...james

 

You make it difficult to answer when you declare that such and such is "where you said you based your election views". That is not true, In Ephesians 1:3-12 Paul is speaking of the first church and those elected to roles in that church. I have other views of election, just not the same views as Calvinists claim. I do not believe that unconditional election exists.

Romans contains 16 chapters, could you be a little more specific?

How about a one at a time approach to this. You name the Calvinist teaching, and the supporting scripture, and I'll respond to that.

It is important to have an understanding of what Grace is, in order to understand what it does and does not do. Calvinists claim the Grace saves, yet no one wants to prove it. All they want to do is post the writings of others that declare it to be so. I'd like to see some evidence that Grace actually accomplishes what is claimed for it.

 

You make it difficult to answer when you declare that such and such is "where you said you based your election views". That is not true, In Ephesians 1:3-12 Paul is speaking of the first church and those elected to roles in that church. I have other views of election, just not the same views as Calvinists claim. I do not believe that unconditional election exists.
</font>[/QUOTE]ok wes...here we go around the world again

1)i told webdog to look up verse on election....ALL verses right? say this word with me....ALL. I told him...i will not put any input into his looking. each passage stands on its own. i did not want you and other arminians saying i twisted the meaning

2)you jump in and say on the very next post...this is the ONE verse (eph 1) that calvin says is election you tell us (the readers) to read it. then you explain it as you see it.

3) I say..if this is the key passage in your election....your key verse you point to is talking predistanation not election. I also post 5 other verses not on you "ELECT list". i add..if that is what you think..you must be wrong for election is only in one verse..and that is what i said look up just election.

4) you say again...LOOK!!! THIS IS WHAT IT MEANS...do not remove from context.

5) then i say..ok.well explain it how election is in this passage other then verse 4

6) you say..well i can't with just this passage...i need to use another passage as context.


wes...i can with just this passage. i do not have to jump to another passage and explain it.

as to the other verses on election (church)...you look them up. all i posted was verses on election that did not fit your list. I have more on calling and choosen. but no need to go there.

i'll be off for a few days..you take your time and look up those verses. It is very easy...search for elect, election...or just READ what i posted

In Christ..James

 

well we talked only on one passage...and i think you can remember what that is.

If you say this is to jews only as you claim many times...how do you account for verse 9 of chapter 3 which is the verse right before the passage you claim does not talk to the greeks?

BTW..this is chapter 3

 

i ask..
what state do you find man before salvation?

your answer..
unsaved.

can you describe this better? what does it mean to be unsaved? you make a big point of grace. so let me do this with your words

 

Unsaved is lacking faith in God, in Jesus, even belief in the Name of Jesus. For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourself, being saved is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

The promise is this: Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The promise is substantiated, by "whoever believes is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already by their own unbelief.

The reality is that we are all judged according to our deeds, and those who have faith in God, pass from death into everlasting life. Those who lack faith in God are, because their names are not found in the book of life, cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

Saved=have faith in God.
Unsaved=lack faith in God.

 

Unsaved is lacking faith in God, in Jesus, even belief in the Name of Jesus. For by grace ARE YE SAVED THROUGH FAITH, and not of yourself, being saved is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast.

The promise is this: Whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. The promise is substantiated, by "whoever believes is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already by their own unbelief.

The reality is that we are all judged according to our deeds, and those who have faith in God, pass from death into everlasting life. Those who lack faith in God are, because their names are not found in the book of life, cast into the lake of fire, the second death.

Saved=have faith in God.
Unsaved=lack faith in God. </font>[/QUOTE]you say...
"The reality is that we are all judged according to our deeds,"

so you are saying God saves us ...based on our deeds?
deeds of what? deeds of faith?

if true are you are saying...all men have the understanding of God at birth?....they only have to place faith in him at any time?

if not...what deeds?

 

"if not...what deeds?"

Mr.Deeds?

j/k around...on with your topic.

 

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! (NKJV)

 

Shame on me for my wording (I've been around Calvinists too much ).

We, the human person, are not judged according to our deeds, OUR deeds are what gets judged for their own merit. Our deeds are tested as if by fire. Those that are good deeds come through the fire in the manner that Gold, Silver, and precious stones "survive" fire. Gold and silver may lose their shape, but they come through fire just fine as molten gold, silver, and heated stones. Those deeds that are bad deeds are consumed by the fire in the manner that wood, hay and stubble are consumed in fire, leaving only worthless ashes. We, the person, are not judged by our deeds. When the judgment of deeds is complete, we remain standing. Those of us who have faith in Jesus, do not face another judgement (john 3:18) but pass from death into life. However, those of us who lack faith in God are judged according to what is in the book of life, and those whose names are not found in that book are cast into the lake of fire, without regards to the deeds they have done. No one who lacks faith in God is exempt from the lake of fire.

 

James 2:19
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! (NKJV) </font>[/QUOTE]Do the demons have faith in God? No, but they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God, because he has dominion over them. They know who he is, they just do not have faith in him.

 

Shame on me for my wording (I've been around Calvinists too much ).

We, the human person, are not judged according to our deeds, OUR deeds are what gets judged for their own merit. Our deeds are tested as if by fire. Those that are good deeds come through the fire in the manner that Gold, Silver, and precious stones "survive" fire. Gold and silver may lose their shape, but they come through fire just fine as molten gold, silver, and heated stones. Those deeds that are bad deeds are consumed by the fire in the manner that wood, hay and stubble are consumed in fire, leaving only worthless ashes. We, the person, are not judged by our deeds. When the judgment of deeds is complete, we remain standing. Those of us who have faith in Jesus, do not face another judgement (john 3:18) but pass from death into life. However, those of us who lack faith in God are judged according to what is in the book of life, and those whose names are not found in that book are cast into the lake of fire, without regards to the deeds they have done. No one who lacks faith in God is exempt from the lake of fire. </font>[/QUOTE]ok...let me see if i understand you right.

all deeds are in the same judgement...the judgement of deeds...and those that have bad deeds has their deeds burn up...and those that have good deeds keep the good deeds.

but this is for deeds only...and people are left standing..un touched and only the deeds gone. and so...now the good deeds are the same as faith...and do not burn. and this is salvation?

ok now we open the book of life...all are still there...some with good deeds/faith...some with nothing. if you have no name in the book...you have no faith...and this is damnation...but if it is there...you have life....do i understand you right?

 

please..i ask no one to attach wes....i want to hear all of this

if you will please.

Thanks..in Christ...james

 

NO! this you don't have right. The Judgment of deeds is just that a judgment of what we have done. It has an equivalent in the growing season, if the tree produces good fruit, the fruit is kept for "distribution" and the tree gets to do it all over again next growing season, if the tree produces bad fruit, the fruit and the tree are destroyed, because bad trees produce bad fruit.

There is a difference however where humans are concerned. A person can be a bad person (lacking faith in God) his whole life, then when finally faced with his own mortality, he cries out to the Lord, who hears him and sends his recruiters to render aid. The person becomes a believer now because he finally heard the word and believed. He later dies from the natural realm and goes to face judgment. His deeds in the natural life are tested as if by fire, and low and behold all that remains is ashes. He has nothing to lay at the feet of Jesus' throne. But he himself, having faith in Jesus, is spared as if from fire. He is destitute of crowns to give to Jesus, but he is saved into everlasting life, because salvation is not of works! It is by faith ALONE.

Conversely here is Joe Goodguy, always doing good works such as giving to the church, feeding and clothing the poor, giving drink to the thirsty, giving shelter to the down and outers, etc. He too faces his mortality, but instead of being horrified, he is haughty because of all his good works, and a false belief that God will accept him anyway. His deeds get judged, and all of them are like pure gold. He takes his good deeds and lays them at the feet of Jesus, but instead of passing from death into life everlasting, his name is not found in the book of life, and kapow! away he goes into the lake of fire. The only difference between the two of these people, is one had faith in God, the other did not!