How to tell whether you are chosen

1) ok so the bad deed guy burns up with his bad deeds..or as you said it..the tree and the fruit is destroyed.

2)...then those with good fruit is still alive...and keeps producing good deeds. if the bad deeds are gone...and the ones left are the good deed guys. do they still have to produce good fruit? or is this heaven?


ok i just read your last line...i'm really lost now.

i'm not trying to be hard. i really want to understand this.

ok.only a person with good deeds can make it past the deed judgement...

then you have those with good deeds and with no faith...and those with good deeds and faith.

so this is when we go to the book of life...is this right?

 

and you said this too..

if the tree produces good fruit, the fruit is kept for "distribution" and the tree gets to do it all over again next growing season,

do it all over again next season?...this is just for the trees..right? not your deed judgement

 

i need to go home...maybe others can ask to understand.

unless it is just me.

thanks wes....

In Christ...james

 

Does a tree decide what kind of fruit it bears?
Does it decide if it bears fruit?
Can an Oak tree bear oranges?
Who determines the disposition of the tree?

 

no wait ..wait, this is what Wes is saying, I think.....,

the bad deeds guy is saved because he has faith, even if it is last minute faith


the good deeds guy is not saved because he did not have faith


So Wes, why are the deeds judged at all if there are no consequences due to the deeds?

 

I think he was just saying that you can have no works and be saved and full of good works and not be saved.
The fruit is actually faith not works.

What I can't understand, if I understand, is, 'and a false belief that God will accept him anyway'? What is a false belief? A false belief that God will accept him anyway so he just goes about doing good works seems to me to be a candidate for saving with your belief Wes.

Believe in what Wes? You know the Devils believe so that type is not saving faith is it? Faith as you said with the baby is a trusting in. What do you trust in Wes but your faith? It ain't Jesus is it? If yes how?

john.

 

Isn't that what the Bible teaches...by grace you are saved through faith? Mentions nothing of deeds saving anybody.

 

Webdog,
There is a scripture that speaks of laying our "treasures" at Jesus' feet, or something like laying crowns at his feet. So all of that is tested for it's purity. There is also a scripture about being rewarded according to our deeds.

Personally, I don't fully understand the judgment of deeds in light of the Book of Life. If your name is not found in the book of life, it matters not how many good deeds you did, you are still going for a long hot swim. Conversely, if your name IS found in the book of life, you are not going into the lake of fire, no matter how worthless your deeds may be.

And I find nothing in scripture that 'works' get you anything except rewards. So man is not judged by his deeds, but man is rewarded for the value of his deeds...Just not into everlasting life which is through faith.

 

Pull yourself together Wes.
You say you have been in the scriptures for 50 years what is all this about:
1. There is a scripture that speaks of laying our "treasures" at Jesus' feet...?
2. ...or something like laying crowns at his feet.?
3. There is also a scripture about being rewarded according to our deeds.?
4. Personally, I don't fully understand the judgment of deeds in light of the Book of Life.

Why don't you know what you believe and how to support it with scripture?

john.

 

yes..this i do not understand from your doctrine.

1)works' get you anything except rewards.
but then
2) but man is rewarded for the value of his deeds

not sure what that value could be.

but anyway..we can get to that later. what i want to hear more then anything is this...

you said man must have faith in God after this deed judgement..and this is salvation. i know you do not believe it is given. You view is grace, faith and love are us to use. So, how does man get this faith in God? Do you understand it to be that man is born with this faith in God? If not, how does he get faith in God to have salvation...after the deed judgement? if i understnad this...i better understand your faith.

Thanks...

In Christ...James

 

You are worse that a corkscrew james, you do more twisting of what others say than anyone else on this BBS, Johnp runs a close second!

Where Have I said these things?

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Wes..i'm sorry if you think i was saying you said man was born with faith in God. You never said this...and i never meant it to sound that way. I was asking if you thought this. my meaning...if he needs faith in God as you post....then where does he get faith in God?

or change the words to what you mean...this is not a attach...just listening to your views. just tell me where man gets this faith in God..as you posted

thanks...james

 

this is your post...not the 1st one where you said you used words as a calvin. sometimes we all use the wrong words. this is your words after you restated yourself

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Wes, Outwest
posted July 18, 2005 04:22 PM

We, the human person, are not judged according to our deeds, OUR deeds are what gets judged for their own merit. Our deeds are tested as if by fire. Those that are good deeds come through the fire in the manner that Gold, Silver, and precious stones "survive" fire. Gold and silver may lose their shape, but they come through fire just fine as molten gold, silver, and heated stones. Those deeds that are bad deeds are consumed by the fire in the manner that wood, hay and stubble are consumed in fire, leaving only worthless ashes. We, the person, are not judged by our deeds. When the judgment of deeds is complete, we remain standing. Those of us who have faith in Jesus, do not face another judgement (john 3:18) but pass from death into life. However, those of us who lack faith in God are judged according to what is in the book of life, and those whose names are not found in that book are cast into the lake of fire, without regards to the deeds they have done. No one who lacks faith in God is exempt from the lake of fire.

posted July 18, 2005 05:03 PM  
Conversely here is Joe Goodguy, always doing good works such as giving to the church, feeding and clothing the poor, giving drink to the thirsty, giving shelter to the down and outers, etc. He too faces his mortality, but instead of being horrified, he is haughty because of all his good works, and a false belief that God will accept him anyway. His deeds get judged, and all of them are like pure gold. He takes his good deeds and lays them at the feet of Jesus, but instead of passing from death into life everlasting, his name is not found in the book of life, and kapow! away he goes into the lake of fire. The only difference between the two of these people, is one had faith in God, the other did not!
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sorry i was not clear on that wes

 

oops...i left this part out.

i had clipped the other as i clipped notes...and forgot about this in between

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NO! this you don't have right. The Judgment of deeds is just that a judgment of what we have done. It has an equivalent in the growing season, if the tree produces good fruit, the fruit is kept for "distribution" and the tree gets to do it all over again next growing season, if the tree produces bad fruit, the fruit and the tree are destroyed, because bad trees produce bad fruit.
There is a difference however where humans are concerned. A person can be a bad person (lacking faith in God) his whole life, then when finally faced with his own mortality, he cries out to the Lord, who hears him and sends his recruiters to render aid. The person becomes a believer now because he finally heard the word and believed. He later dies from the natural realm and goes to face judgment. His deeds in the natural life are tested as if by fire, and low and behold all that remains is ashes. He has nothing to lay at the feet of Jesus' throne. But he himself, having faith in Jesus, is spared as if from fire. He is destitute of crowns to give to Jesus, but he is saved into everlasting life, because salvation is not of works! It is by faith ALONE.

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sorry

 

anyway...just want to hear how man gets this faith in God. the deed judgement is after faith...so that can wait


Thanks...james

 

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

When man leaves this natural life, his faith in God is established in his spirit. If he has no faith in God then he will not get it after natural death! Because faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. So, when every person has their deeds judged or tested as some versions call it. the person's fate is already determined. John 3:18 "Whoever believes is NOT JUDGED, whoever does not believe is JUDGED ALREADY by his unbelief"...signed God the Son. However, All persons deeds are judged! The judgment Jesus speaks of is the life or death judgment where the sheep and goats are separated forever.

The good works of one lacking faith CANNOT save him. The Evil works of one having faith CANNOT condemn him. Works have no bearing on ones eternal destiny! God's Grace, which would be present where God is cannot save those who lack faith in HIM after the person has died the natural life. Grace doesn't save at all! IT IS FAITH ALONE through which we are save.

 

Faith comes from hearing the word, but the word is given to all men. Some receive it, some do not.

 

someone wrote: Isn't that what the Bible teaches...by grace you are saved through faith? Mentions nothing of deeds saving anybody.
----
You are, of course, right.
It actually does mention the opposite of that though. "By faith you are saved, not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

Wes, we ARE saved by God's grace. After the fall, God did not have to make Christ an atonement for man, but he did, which is grace. To say we are not saved by grace, is to say we earned it. If you take out the prepositional phrase in Eph. 2 it reads "For it is by grace we are saved (through faith), this not of ourselves, it is the gift of God". This is the same thing I argue with calvinists, faith cannot be the gift in this passage, but God's unmerited grace toward mankind.

This is what I mean when I say I am neither a calvinist or an arminian. I disagree with some of both doctrines!

 

yes..well i see the works part.

i'm glad you cleared that up

but what i'm getting at...is this.

you say faith comes by hearing..and indeed it does. That is what the bible says.

so if you do not hear... you have no chance of faith in God?

and i know your not saying ones ears are deaf...you mean understanding right?