How to tell whether you are chosen

hi ya tex....long time no talk

is this what you mean wes? or is it something else?

i do not want to put words in your mouth

 

Then why is it that not everyone under God's grace, and that includes virtually everyone who has ever lived is living and will live while God is behaving according to his Grace, gets saved? If grace saves, and you demand that it does, then grace saves everyone of God's creatures. There is no such thing as 'selective grace'! There is no scripture that supports selective grace. So convince me that grace saves by telling me HOW grace saves only some of those covered by grace.

 

Then why is it that not everyone under God's grace, and that includes virtually everyone who has ever lived is living and will live while God is behaving according to his Grace, gets saved? If grace saves, and you demand that it does, then grace saves everyone of God's creatures. There is no such thing as 'selective grace'! There is no scripture that supports selective grace. So convince me that grace saves by telling me HOW grace saves only some of those covered by grace. </font>[/QUOTE]so anyway wes,

back to this faith in God. We get faith in God by hearing. Is this the only way we can get this faith in God? or are there other ways?

 

Oh, I see there is no answer to the questions about grace's abilities.

 

The GRACE of God is an attribute of His. The definition is "Unmerited FAVOR". Grace doesn't DO anything. BUT it is by God's GRACE that he has FAVORED those that He bestows FAITH to believe. Not all receive the GIFT of Faith.

You are saved BY GRACE(God's choosing) by FAITH. BOTH grace and faith are from God. God's choosing Who He wants (grace) AND the Ability to believe in Christ (faith). It's all God and not from man. Therefore he (what does the HE refer to Wes?.. tee hee) "He" refers to the LAST proper NOUN defined (MAN) can NOT boast.

 

AMEN AMEN AMEN

 

wes...if you want to talk about Gods grace..fine. I was only asking you what you believed.

again...if faith comes by hearing....is that the only way he can have faith in God?

or..if you want to talk about grace how is it that man understand Gods grace? is it only from hearing..and then though faith...or is there other ways?

 

hello?

 

rc,

You have rightly stated that Grace is an attribute of the one possessing it, and believe me, man has grace too, though man has to learn to be gracious, an area of life in which I struggle greatly. Man's grace is entirely contained within man, just as God's grace is contained entirely within God.

God behaving toward man with Grace, does not mean that God chooses any individual man for salvation. He is being gracious to ALL mankind equally, none receiving more or less of God's grace than any other. God's word is there for ALL mankind, not just for those who can read Greek! Those who respond to God's word with faith in God, are those whom God's word says that he chooses for salvation. He does not want those who do not have faith in Him....who would want children who have no faith in their parent? When that situation occurs and it does occur lots, there is always a severing of relationship, and it is usually terminal! Same with God and those who lack faith in him.

Neither grace nor faith are transferable gifts from God to man. God gave the ability to have both to man when He created man, and sin did not take away that ability! Sin just makes it easier to not use that ability.

I am not saved by grace, I am saved because God is gracious toward all mankind, and while HE is, I heard his Word and believed in HIM. Now, it is my faith in him that causes HIM to save me, because HE is the one who promised in his word, that if I have faith in Him, in his Son, even on his Son's name, that he will save me! I believe therefore that I am saved (future tense)into everlasting life with My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ by being OBEDIENT to God and Having faith in Him.

The same hymn sung first in a non-Calvinist church then as sung in a Calvinist church.
Non Calvinist;
Only trust him, Only trust him, Only trust him now, HE WILL SAVE YOU, HE WILL SAVE YOU, HE WILL SAVE YOU NOW!

Calvinist; Only trust grace, only trust grace, only trust grace now, grace will save you, grace will save you, grace will save you now?

Grace don't do the saving, so don't make the claim that it does! You lose sight of the one who does the saving if you give the credit elsewhere. Yes, it is a gracious act of God that he does save us, but he does it deliberately with his full authority, based on our obedience to him, Salvation is not through an attribute such as grace. His grace keeps him from destroying us altogether, so that we can come to faith by hearing his Word.

Incidentally, I detect a little pride in your post at being elected. Kind of like one holding their nose in the air thinking to one's self, See God chose ME! I'm one of HIS elect!

 

wes...if you want to talk about Gods grace..fine. I was only asking you what you believed.

again...if faith comes by hearing....is that the only way he can have faith in God?

or..if you want to talk about grace how is it that man understand Gods grace? is it only from hearing..and then though faith...or is there other ways? </font>[/QUOTE]Does one need to understand God's grace in order to receive God's free gift of Salvation to those who have faith in Him? NO!

One need's to have faith, to have faith one needs an object in which to place his faith, we LEARN about objects before we place our faith in Objects. LEARNING implies Knowledge gained. The more we know about the object of our faith the greater our faith in the object becomes. That is why we have the bible, so that we can learn as much as can be learned about God without seeing him face to face.

No one opens our skull and pours in knowledge! We must learn for ourselves. No one opens us up and pours in FAITH either, faith comes from within and is based on the knowledge we have! If we have no knowledge about something or someone, we certainly do not have faith in it!

 

wes...if you want to talk about Gods grace..fine. I was only asking you what you believed.

again...if faith comes by hearing....is that the only way he can have faith in God?

or..if you want to talk about grace how is it that man understand Gods grace? is it only from hearing..and then though faith...or is there other ways? </font>[/QUOTE]Does one need to understand God's grace in order to receive God's free gift of Salvation to those who have faith in Him? NO!

One need's to have faith, to have faith one needs an object in which to place his faith, we LEARN about objects before we place our faith in Objects. LEARNING implies Knowledge gained. The more we know about the object of our faith the greater our faith in the object becomes. That is why we have the bible, so that we can learn as much as can be learned about God without seeing him face to face.

No one opens our skull and pours in knowledge! We must learn for ourselves. No one opens us up and pours in FAITH either, faith comes from within and is based on the knowledge we have! If we have no knowledge about something or someone, we certainly do not have faith in it! </font>[/QUOTE]wes,

Thanks for your reply.

I understand your faith part. You are saying..we can only use faith.
and we learn to place faith in objects..even before we know of God.

this is what I'm asking...
1) In order to have faith in God, do you have to have a knowledge of God1st.
2)..Is this the only way we can have faith in God ...though 1st knowing about God?

 

It does not sound to me like you understand faith, not by that definition anyway.

FAITH is inherent to man alone! No other species has it or requires it! God does not have faith because God knows all and sees all, thus for God, there is no need for faith which is defined as the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen.

God himself says, "for lack of knowledge my people perish". We read in scripture that FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. What is heard? KNOWLEDGE! Where does knowledge of God come from? The word of God. So then one must conclude that Faith in God comes from the Knowledge one gets from the Word of God!

So, the answer to question 1) is YES! The logical conclusion is Little Knowledge=Little Faith! Much Knowledge=Much Faith. The beauty of God's plan is that Little Faith is sufficient unto salvation, because if one has faith even on the name of Jesus, Jesus says that person has everlasting life.

So one does not need to be a DDiv to have faith in God! But one must have some knowledge upon which to base one's faith and if that knowledge is of God, then the faith the one has is faith in God and that is sufficient unto Salvation.

The problem of knowledge is this, if you take "garbage in", believe incomplete truth, you get "garbage faith out", faith based on incomplete truth. That is where these stupid doctrines like Calvinism and Arminianism, conceived by men, indeed FAIL man! They filter and focus man's knowledge and prevent man from seeing the whole truth. Not one of the doctrines is sound because they each tend to filter truth and cause one focus upon a 'now limited' God.

The scriptures tell us that the source of faith is knowledge (hearing) and that faith in God comes from the Knowledge of God contained in His HOLY Word. Scriptures do not tell us that each man's faith is 'a Gift of God', but rather, Faith itself is a gift because God gives us every reason to have faith in Him, and thereby receive the Gift of God which is life, everlasting life (salvation).

I have deliberately not defined the bible as the whole word of God. I personally believe that God has other ways of providing knowledge about himself, and those ways could easily be identified within the scope of "the word of God". But the Bible is the most convenient and simplest to use, and it is translated into most of the world's languages, so that if the principalities and powers permit, the bible could indeed be made available to virtually every living human.

So Yes, man must have some knowledge of God, to have faith in God! You don't have faith in that which you don't know something about.

I know of no other way to have faith in God, than to have some knowledge of God.

 

Sorry i went to bed early last night.

Lets sum this up and see if i understand now.

Is it fair to say....

1) Faith comes from some source of knowing God, and this is the ONLY way that we can have faith?

2) Based on the 1st fact above. Faith is...Knowing and then trusting in what we Know about God?

 

That is what scriptures tell me!

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God!

Your question "1)" is non specific about faith. So let me say this, In order to have faith in God you first must know there is a God, that is the beginning of faith in God! Then the more you know of God, the greater your faith in God becomes.

That principle applies to faith in other things and people too! Faith in God comes from God's word, while faith in other things comes from their respective knowledge sources, but you must "hear" that knowledge in order to have any faith in it. That's what schools do ya know.

You cannot have faith in that for which you have no knowledge!

 

ok now it comes to this.

if knowledge of God is all we need...how does the world know of God...till God reaches out to man and tell of Him?

you say they are not born with this knowledge.

it comes from..the Bible...from sharing that others do to us....or a hit on the head like Paul.

But.....when Christ came...

John 1...no understanding
5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

John 8...they can not hear....
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I proceeded and came forth from God; I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

John 17...the saved know him...but the unsaved do not
17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

1 cor 2....no understanding
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned

Why could Christ not make nic undersand?

12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how can you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended into heaven but he who descended from heaven, the Son of man.

of all the teachers....Christ would be the one. Yet nic had a sin nature...could not understand. He knew of God...he was rasied in a church...if you will...still no faith.

at some point all that are saved understand. But this is after God has reached out to them and shares

this reaching out by God.....is election


In Christ...james

 

The question was not one of faith, it was one of understanding the principal of being born again! Nicodemus had faith, he had a lot of Faith, in God even. He did not accept what Jesus was telling him because he did not understand what Jesus was telling him. Nicodemus was equating Jesus words to natural birth and not spiritual rebirth. Therefore Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a teacher in the land, which meant being a religious teacher, and yet not understanding spiritual rebirth.

Faith? Nicodemus had lots of it.

 

HELLO!! is this mic on?

here we go...around the world again..

The question was not one of faith, it was one of understanding the principal of being born again! Nicodemus had faith, he had a lot of Faith, in God even. He did not accept what Jesus was telling him because he did not understand what Jesus was telling him. Nicodemus was equating Jesus words to natural birth and not spiritual rebirth. Therefore Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a teacher in the land, which meant being a religious teacher, and yet not understanding spiritual rebirth.

Faith? Nicodemus had lots of it. </font>[/QUOTE]I have to pin you down...how do we get this faith in God...2 pages of asking...then you post this

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God himself says, "for lack of knowledge my people perish". We read in scripture that FAITH cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. What is heard? KNOWLEDGE! Where does knowledge of God come from? The word of God. So then one must conclude that Faith in God comes from the Knowledge one gets from the Word of God!
So, the answer to question 1) is YES! The logical conclusion is Little Knowledge=Little Faith! Much Knowledge=Much Faith. The beauty of God's plan is that Little Faith is sufficient unto salvation, because if one has faith even on the name of Jesus, Jesus says that person has everlasting life.

*************************
you said....faith in God..comes from knowing about God.
Hello???..is that what YOU said???

we were not talking about as you said...
"faith is just there for us to use."
...my thoughts when you ALWAYS bring this up....."whatever wes"...but lets push on to the point.

so i said....."faith in God"...and made sure i always add..."in God"...for you would once again..run down that pointless path.

i say...so faith in God only comes from hearing/knowing about God??

you say..YES

i say..are you sure????
you say...YES you are sure

ok now if this is so faith only comes from hearing/understand...AS YOU SAID
I DID NOT FORCE YOU TO SAY IT

...why is it that some do not have hearing/understanding at any time in their life???
hello??? can you hear me wes??

...and why is it that some do have this understanding placed in there hands?
HELLO?? are you with me so far????


and one guy is nic...he had NO understanding...even when Christ tried to teach him
still with me wes?????????

now what would this mean wes????
you said faith comes from knowing God.....and Christ said...Nis had no understanding...
think now...its not that hard
by your own words...what are you saying??


and then..all those verses...the bible saying over and over...no hearing/understanding in man

HELLO?????????????????

and you want to start all over with the ....faith is just there for us to use...nic had faith..you said above

yes faith wes...but we were talking about FAITH IN GOD!!!!

with no understanding of God....where is his faith in God wes??? YOU said it can not happen with out hearing/understanding

HELLO!!! maybe someone unpluged the speakers

wes..i tell you. you can not be this....(blank).

HEARING/understanding.....man comes to "faith in God"....yet some do not have understanding....so they never have faith in God. so those that do have understanding...did God play favor with these that do?

hey wes...are you with me???

 

JArthur001,
Search the archives, I nearly went crazy when I tried to explain HEARING/UNDERSTANDING to Wes. This went on forever, Wes never understood what I was saying. Did you Wes?
Finally I figured if it is meant for Wes to UNDERSTAND,then he will understand.

That doesn't mean that I don't still give it a shot now and then.

Who knows maybe you will be the one used to get through to him.

Oh yea, just a note, the verse says:
So then faith cometh by hearing AND hearing by the word of God.

Not:

So then faith cometh by hearing the word of God. (As some seem to think)

The verse tells us that:

faith comes by hearing

AND hearing(Spiritual understanding) comes from the word of God.

[ July 20, 2005, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: here now ]

 

yet sadly page after page he claims.. others must listen to him....for he is THE TRUTH.

Some how i knew it would come to this. I felt i could make him say it..if i kept at it.....but i also knew he would not SEE/understand what he said.

oh well maybe you are right. I hate to give up on anyone. ...but Christ said His words to men he can across...and moved on. Maybe i should follow His lead.

 

Hello here now.

Is giving it a shot the same as having a shot?

No he works too hard! Those that haven't done the work are the reapers!

It is the Lord that opens eyes not men.

john.