How To Treat A Calvanist! Should we cut off Calvanists from the Body????

[JSM17]

Ann Wrote:

If David says the wicked go astray from the womb, then how do you explain that all babies are innocent? That is just not supported by the text.

My question is does scripture teach that all humans are "WICKED"?

Because we sin, does that make us "WICKED" according to scripture?

The ideas of Calvinism teach that we are Totally Depraved.

I can find many variations of how people define T.D. but how does scripture define T.D. if at all?

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Ann Wrote:


My question is does scripture teach that all humans are "WICKED"?

Because we sin, does that make us "WICKED" according to scripture?

The ideas of Calvinism teach that we are Totally Depraved.

I can find many variations of how people define T.D. but how does scripture define T.D. if at all?

I don't know about "wicked." Actually, I thought that was a play on Broadway.

It's not the ideas of Calvinism. It's Scripture. I don't have the time or the inclination to list each one or to even copy & paste, but the following three web sites each show Biblical support for this position if you really want to search. The first one is from John Piper, a Baptist pastor in Minneapolis.


http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/piper/depravity.html

http://www.traviscarden.com/archive/2007/01/08/total-depravity-verse-list

http://www.gospeloutreach.net/total_depravity.html

 

[annsni]

Ann Wrote:


My question is does scripture teach that all humans are "WICKED"?

Because we sin, does that make us "WICKED" according to scripture?

The ideas of Calvinism teach that we are Totally Depraved.

I can find many variations of how people define T.D. but how does scripture define T.D. if at all?

Well, the sinner certainly is not righteous before God are they? They ARE wicked. Romans 3 tells us "For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God."

Can we say that a child can sin? In Romans 14:23 Paul says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Is a child doing ANYTHING based on faith? Not faith in mom and dad but faith in God. I find that a very telling verse.

 

[webdog]

The text is not hyperbolic -- it's real. It reminds me of anther passage wherein it states :"No not one." You must have a meager definition of going astray. But I prefer to follow the Bible's understanding of sinfulnes and going astray.

Why don't you define it for us, then. "From the womb" all my children could do was cry, drink a bottle and burp up. What sin did they commit in this?

God's ways are above our own. Are you willing to admit that? Or do you wish to cast God as a sinner like yourself?

Do you have a point with this? Are you going to answer the question what conscious sin a baby has committed?

Wicked from the womb or even before is still 'wicked' in God's eyes. We're waiting for you to conform to God's understanding of the subject.

So you are basically saying words don't have meanings, and the Holy Spirit mistakenly added this word to the canon.

A "legal atonement" has not been paid for the sins of every single person -- past,present and future. The Lord did not die for Pharoah,Esau,Ahab, Jezebel,Judas and a host of other reprobates whom He had already marked out for condemnation before the world began.

Your ignorance of the atonement is noted.

God is a God of order. He is not haphazard in His decrees. Contrary to your wishes the Lord has the prerogative to select as many or as few as He so desires for salvation. It has absolutely nothing to do with justice but mercy.Consult Romans 9;especially verses 14-20 or so.

So...if it is not arbitrary, what is the reason? There has to be one in order for it not to be arbitrary...remember...words do have meanings.

 

[gb93433]

Why don't you define it for us, then. "From the womb" all my children could do was cry, drink a bottle and burp up. What sin did they commit in this?

Being born. I do not agree with what some believe but some would claim that sin is transmitted when the baby is conceived.

 

[webdog]

Oh? Then you have very unusual kids. Your 3 year old has not disobeyed you? Your 1 year old has not done something wrong like hit you or bite you? I've been raising 4 children and each one showed their true natures pretty young. It was pretty amazing to watch.

I thought we were discussing "from the womb"...3 and 4 year olds have been removed from the womb for some time, and even when they lash out against us, they don't have the conscious ability to realize they are breaking God's Law, but mommy and daddy's law. We are not separated from God for breaking man's law.

Can you show me a verse in Scripture that says that babies go to heaven because they are not guilty?

There are plenty of Scripture stating people found not guilty go to Heaven, else you and I won't be there. Babies have the blood of Christ covering them. Spiritual death is the ceasing of life...there has to be life for it to cease or it is not death.

But the passage does not speak in hyperbole.

Unless a 1 hour old baby is plotting sin, it is.

However, if the sins of the whole world are paid for, that would mean all sins - including their rejecting the truth. Christ died before most of the world was born and He died for their sins. Does that mean they have no guilt for sin until they actually understand the truth then reject God? Then it's best for us to kill our children before they are able to understand the truth to guarantee that they get into heaven before they reject God. But that's not supported by Scripture.

The OT atonement would be a place for you to start. Who did the high priest make the atonement for?

It is not just for God to choose ANY then. It was not just for God to send His Son to die for our sins.

But it IS just for God to choose those who meet the requirements He has laid forth!

Who says that our justice is better than God's justice? Ours is a blind justice. God's is a justice that is omniscient. I think His trumps ours.

Exactly! Our flawed justice even states one cannot be held accountable for which we have no control over...yet we do this with God.

Are you serious?? Paul heard about Jesus - heard the truth but he did not want that. HE DID NOT WANT JESUS. Read Acts 9 again:

I'm dead serious...Paul thought he was doing the work of God in order to inherit eternal life. I don't see anything from Acts 9 that refutes this. God chose him to be an apostle, a chosen incident.

 

[annsni]

I thought we were discussing "from the womb"...3 and 4 year olds have been removed from the womb for some time, and even when they lash out against us, they don't have the conscious ability to realize they are breaking God's Law, but mommy and daddy's law. We are not separated from God for breaking man's law.

And we are told in Scripture that anything not done in faith is sin. So babies sin since they do not have faith.

I'm dead serious...Paul thought he was doing the work of God in order to inherit eternal life. I don't see anything from Acts 9 that refutes this. God chose him to be an apostle, a chosen incident.

Killing Christians would not have earned Paul eternal life according to the Law.

 

[webdog]

And we are told in Scripture that anything not done in faith is sin. So babies sin since they do not have faith.

Now you are really reaching. You are basically saying we are sinning by being conceived, which is contrary to Scripture. Sinners are those who sin.

Killing Christians would not have earned Paul eternal life according to the Law.

According to the law, heretics were to be killed.

 

[annsni]

Now you are really reaching. You are basically saying we are sinning by being conceived, which is contrary to Scripture. Sinners are those who sin.

Yet Scripture says that anything done not in faith is sin. This must play out pretty big, don't you think?

According to the law, heretics were to be killed.

OK, but was he seeking Jesus? No. It says so in Scripture. Paul did not want Jesus - he rejected Him clearly. It wasn't until God chose him that he changed his mind.

 

[webdog]

And we are told in Scripture that anything not done in faith is sin. So babies sin since they do not have faith.

You are aware of the context of Romans 14, aren't you? Using this as a proof text for just breathing air or being born as considered sin is not it, not to mention...if you do use this as a proof text, the ability to have faith is also needed...which in itself refutes your point, since babies don't have this mental capacity to have faith in Christ.

OK, but was he seeking Jesus? No. It says so in Scripture. Paul did not want Jesus - he rejected Him clearly. It wasn't until God chose him that he changed his mind.

True, he wasn't seeking Jesus...nobody does unless God reaches out to us first...exactly what he did in this instance. Do you believe Paul was forced to obey, or do you believe he could have disobeyed? He was God's "chosen instrument"...but this came only after he obeyed Christ and did what was commanded.

 

[Gup20]

Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

[Shortandy]

Ultimately all you can do is laugh and pitty this hypocrite! Talk about how Calvinist are dividing then post a video about it that does nothing but divide. How funny:laugh:

But I guess she is getting her 15 minutes isn't she because we are taking the time to talk about her. I say ignore it.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gup20: Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, [and] I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

HP: I wonder how Ann or Rippon would respond to these passages.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gup20: Psa 22:9 But thou [art] he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope [when I was] upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou [art] my God from my mother's belly.

HP: Interesting passage by the way. The silence is deadening Gup. If we were to take the position of those holding to original sin as a universal principle taken from Psalms 51:5, what stops the universalist, or one believing that all men are born in agreement with God, from taking this passage as a universal principle as well to support their argument? Such silliness some are engaged in establishing dogmas. Can you imagine what would happen if every time a Scripture speaks of one in the first person (as Ps 51:5 does) that we would extrapolate that as evidence of some universal principle? Selah.