How were people saved in the OT?

Linda you can't find one place in the OT that gives us a picture of Lordship dealing with sin. It is ALWAYS death and shed blood. That's it. That's what the Bible says. Adding to that is the teaching of man, becuase sin is dealt with my death and shed blood that's it. I'm sorry you and others don't like that, but that's what the Bible says so we just have to believe it.

That's not what I'm saying that's what the Bible says.

Amen. But that doesn't prove your point.

Actually it is. The name of Jesus is not what saves me from my sin. It is His substitutionary death and shed blood. Again that's what the Bible says. It's crystal clear.

You are absolutely right. If one goes back to walking in the flesh instead of walking in the Spirit there are grave consequences both in the here and now and after death!

Your right it does bring about a change. It makes you a part of the one new man in Christ. It makes you a part of the new nation that is neither Jew nor Greek. That is the change that is wrought. The idea that a person is changed so that they do not desire sin any longer is misleading and misguiding folks.

You still have your old sin nature and if folks are not discipled they will not see the power of the Holy Spirit to deny self and will continue to live in sin.

The idea that someone is changed into some sort of super human that doesn't desire to sin and is some sort of new creation that is automatically going to win out over the flesh is terribly misleading folks.

Again that's why you have folks that never get off a spiritual first base, because this bondage that some of Christendom is placing on them is holding them down and never letting them leave, because they don't know if they are doing enough good works to "prove" to you and others that they are saved or if they are doing the right kinds of works. It's terribly heart breaking. I know first hand and thanks be to God that He has through His Holy Spirit taught me through Scripture otherwise!

It amazes me how many times you all contradict yourself. First you say that folks will walk in the Spirit and then you come back and say that we should have a holy lifestyle. Which is it? Is it we will or we should?

You actually have it right here . . . holy living SHOULD be a way of life. That doesn't mean it WILL be a way of life.

 

J. Jump,

Are you saying that belief in the resurrection has no bearing on the Salvation event?
"Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures."(1 Corinthians 15:1-4 NIV)
According to Paul, there are three things we need to believe to be saved
1)Death for our sins
2)Burial
3)Raised according to Scripture

In reading your posts, you seem to be speaking of two Savation events. Is this accurate? Please provide Scripture.

J. Jump

"What a wretched man I am! Who will rescueme from this body of death? Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin."(Romans 7:24-25 NIV)
Yes, our physical bodies still desire sin, but not our heart and mind.

J. Jump

I haven't seen anyone in these posts indicate that you have to be "super human" in your Christian life. Of course we will continue to sin as long as we have these corruptable bodies, but in our heart and mind we can fight this just as Paul did, as he explained at the end of Romans 7.

I've seen no post that indicates "bondage."
"Therefore, there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by th sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righeous requiremnets of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit."(Romans 8:1-4 NIV)

God didn't make us righteous, He declared us righteous through the death, burial, and resurrection of His Son Jesus Christ.

 

A coupla' or three things. How were people saved in the OT? The same way they were saved when Jesus walked the earth, the same way they are saved in this - "the dispensation of the grace of God", the same way David was saved living "under the Law", the same way Isaac, Jacob, Joseph and Moses were saved in 'the age of "Promise"', the same way as Abel, Enoch and Noah were saved in the Ante-diluvian Age before the Flood, 'theologically' a.k.a. 'the Age of 'Conscience'', the same way someone will be 'saved' during "the time of Jacob's trouble or "the Tribulation", the same way one will be 'saved' during the Millenial Kingdom, - in every age, with no exception, in the sense I believe the OP is asking, and that is by faith.

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted unto him for righteousness." (Gen. 15:6 - also repeated in the NT) Four times Scripture tells us, 'The just shall live by faith'. The 'faith' is the same in the OT (Habakkuk 2:4), and the NT - "For by grace you have been saved through faith," (Eph. 2:8a); and "16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, (Rom. 4:16a). There is absolutely no difference between 'faith' and 'believe', save one is a noun, and the other, a verb. As Jesus told one "Your faith has saved you"; And as Paul told the 'jailor', "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved,". To use the vernacular, "Same difference!" Abraham and the woman were "before the cross", the jailor and the Ephesians were "after the cross." "Faith" is the one and only modus operandi of "grace".

The basis for salvation, and hence this grace, is something else, namely the blood, the once and for all time fully satisfactory sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ, the Lamb, when He was crucified on Mt. Moriah. (I've patiently waited for almost a year for a nibble here, but I digress.) The Lord "took away forever" the sins, and in fact sin, which up until then had merely been "covered" by "the blood of lambs, bulls, and goats, in a foreview.

As to the question of what they actually "knew", I agree that one is hard pressed to make any case that those in the OT ever had anything remotely resembling 'a clear picture of "the cross"'. There was some inkling of "things to come", to be sure, for Scripture fully declares this. But there is certainly no comprehensive picture, such as we have, since.

So in this sense, I think most of us are fairly well on the same page, if not on the same exact line.

 

And the third question, the one that was mentioned by deacon jd, of:

The last part, about "keeping the law", is the easy half here. Nope! Never happened, never did, and never will! Not one person was ever saved, or ever could be saved by "keeping the law". If anything should be clear from Scripture, this should be one of them. The Lord, and the Lord only, ever "kept the law"! Paul says, "If righteousness (i.e., the righteousness of salvation that is by faith - Rom.4) comes by the law, then Christ has died in vain." So we have that one out of here!

The Lord did go to preach, after His crucifixion, to parts of Hades (or Sheol), the realm of the dead. And I shall take a lot of "poetic license" here :tongue3: , as to what He preached, but the essence is there.

He was in Paradise to await the 'thief on the cross', saying, "I AM here as I said I would be for you", and told him to not get settled in, too much, for it was only for a short time. He preached to the saints - to Abraham and Isaac, "I AM the Lamb God provided you on Mt. Moriah, in a figure; to Job, Naomi, Boaz, and Ruth, "I AM the goel - near kinsman redeemer - you saw coming to redeem you!", to Abraham, again, "I AM the one for whose day you awaited"; to Enoch, Elisha, and Elijah, "I AM the driver of the lead chariot!", to Moses, "I AM the one whose has the riches you awaited.", once again, to Abraham, "I am the builder of the city you looked for.", to Jacob, I AM the ladder you ascended, and I AM the one with whom you wrestled all night, and BTW, I notice that your limp is gone.", to Noah, "I AM the ark, and I AM the one who shut the door, keeping you and your family safe.", and to all. "I AM that I AM!", "I AM He who lived and was dead, and behold I AM alive forevermore!", and I AM here to tell you it's 'moving time', so get ready to move out!"

He preached to the angels from Noah's day, in Tataros prison, saying, "I AM he who Lived and was dead, and behold, I AM alive forevermore." "I have overcome Satan, once and for all, and I AM here to tell you, 'Boys! It's all over, and if you think this is a bad place, hang in there, 'cause you ain't seen nuthin' yet!'" :tonofbricks:

I'm not sure Scripture ever tells us whether or not he preached to the lost, such as 'the rich man', but Scripture does tell us that they could 'hear' across "the Great gulf fixed", so they were not missing a thing that was said.

When the three days were up, He, from Paradise said, "I AM leading my captivity captive, I'm taking this place with Me, to a place far better where this cannot even begin to compare, My Father's House, - all of you on this side of the great gulf fixed, here in "Abraham's Bosom", and we are leaving behind, those in torments there, so we're leaving this dump! I've got the keys to this joint, so Awake!, you who sleep!" :sleeping_2: "Hit it Gabriel! Blow that trumpet!" :wavey: ""And we're outta' here!!!""

Hope you all enjoyed this 'account', "on account of" it's true!

Ed

 

So there is some truth in purgatory!!!

Cheers,

Jim

 

We now know more about through faith since Christ revealed this information from heaven, after He was seated next to His Father.

Scripture says otherwise for those in the OT, as the Jew was justified by faith.

Justification through faith did not become known until after Damascus Road. The Gentile before that occurrence could only come as a proselyte to Israel's God by believing in the "circumcision gospel", and they had to become "circumcised". Later they had to "repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins".

 

We do agree on some things Jim. But I see two (2) gospels in what you say above, and this is where I parted for the "Body Church".

 

Good read. We are not Israel of the "Kingdom Church", but of the "Body Church". We must be careful for He knows who is a Jew and who isn't.

 

Scripture speaks of saved, being saved and will be saved. I guess if you wanted to classify it as different salvation events you could probably. But if you did that it would have to be three and not two, because man is a tri-part being and not a bi-part being. We have a body, soul and a spirit.

The spirit is what is dead and what needs to be made alive. And that is exactly what happens at the very moment that we believe on Jesus (Acts 16:30-31). It is by God's grace through faith in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus the Lamb of God that we are saved today.

Our spirits are made alive and we are given life everlasting.

Once we are made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit we are in a spiritual condition then to entertain the offer of the kingdom that was given to Israel.

Most of Christendom thinks that Israel rejected spiritual salvation, but that is not the case at all. Israel rejected the offer of taking part in the coming kingdom of Christ. Spiritual salvation and the coming kingdom of Christ are two totally different topics.

Again once we are made alive spiritually we are in a condition to understand and respond to a spiritual message. That would be the second phase of salvation. Some call it sanctification. The Bible also calls it the salvation of the soul (James 1:21, Hebrews 10:39, I Peter 1:9).

Your soul should be in the process of being saved each and every day we are living in the wilderness. The realization of the salvation of the soul comes at the end of our faith according to Peter.

The majority of the NT is written to saved people in order for them to know how their souls can be saved in that coming day.

Absolutely we can fight against the flesh. The question is will we. And unfortunately some will not. Some will choose to let the flesh rule their lives instead of the Spirit. That's a real possibility in my own life and is a battle every moment!

Of course no one is going to come right out and say it. Just like those that believe in Lordship salvation will not admit that they are teaching a works based salvation, but that's what it is. They backload works into the salvation equation.

What they are doing is placing people into the bondage of works. They say a person MUST have good works in order to "prove" they are saved. And if they don't have good works then they weren't really saved in the first place. That's bondage because there are a number of folks that never grow in their relationship with Christ, because they never can figure out if they are saved or not, because no one will tell them how many good works they have to have or what kind of good works they have to have and so they never get away from questioning their salvation.

It's terribly sad.

Well there is some truth to this statement and then there is some non-truth. We were made righteous by the death and shed blood of Christ that is true. But we are also in the process of being made righteous through His resurrection.

Believing in the resurrection doesn't have anything to do with spiritual salvation. The disciples didn't even believe in the resurrection until after it actually happened, but one is going to have an awful hard time proving with Scripture that the disciples weren't saved until after the resurrection.

Hope that helps clarify a little more.

 

If you are referring to me, and my posts, no, and I've never said that.

I guess if one wanted to place the tag of "purgatory" on what the Bible calls "Paradise", one might say that, but I don't do that, hence don't see any truth in this, at all.
Paradise was, I believe, a part of Sheol/Hades, the realm of the departed, and was in "the heart of the earth" prior to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe it to be the same place as "Abraham's bosom", separated from a place called "torments", by a "Great Gulf Fixed". It was a wonderful place, as the name tells us. It was populated by the saved/righteous from before the cross, from Abel on who had experienced the departuee from this earthly life. And the Lord led them captive when He arose, taking Paradise, and all it's 'citizens', into the very of very presence of the Triune God, something that up until then had not occurred. Jesus said that to Nicodemus in John 3. However, after the cross, we read Paul speaking of being "caught up" to Paradise, now 'above', and "in the heavenlies". The Great Gulf fixed was dissolved, and "Sheol (the "torments" and/or "tataros" part) has enlarged herself", 'taking over' the 'space' that once was occupied by Paradise. It's 'occupants' now are solely the condemned/damned. One of the reasons the "gates of Hades" would not prevail against the church, is that Paradise, was no longer to be in Hades - the realm of the dead - for it moved out, and left no forwarding address for those who were 'left behind'. It was taken to Heaven - the realm of life, so now, "we are confident and willing to be absent from the body; to be present with the Lord", as Scripture states.

Ed

 

I disagree with this conclusion, here. No one ever had to become "circumsised" (physically) in order to be saved. In fact, There was no "circumcision" gospel vs. "uncircumcision" gospel, per se, and Scripture does not teach this, regardless of the KJV and ASV rendering of Gal. 2:7. The word "euangelion" appears only once in the verse, and the NKJV translators get it right by placing the second 'rendering' in italics. The Darby, HCSB, and NASB do even better, and more accurately, by not having a second rendering at all. (BTW, as far as I can tell, there is no real question as to the wording in Greek, as the five text forms I have any access to, all have the exact same wording of the text.) I happen to think the wording of "to" fits the context better than "of", as well. There is no preposition, here, and the usage is that of the 'dative', as opposed to the 'instrumental', IMO, hence 'the gospel to the "circumcision"' by James, Peter, and John; and 'to the "uncircumcision"' by Barnabas and Paul, and later Mark, Silas, and Timothy. As an example, there are a couple of regulars on the BB, JoJ, and C4K, both missionaries, and gospel preachers to the Japanese people, and to the Irish people. The one gospel is "to" them, not "of" them. And there is a great deal of difference between 'TO' and 'OF' in this context, here, and in Scripture.

A male did have to be circumsised to participate in the 'commonwealth of Israel', (Moses' two sons are "Exhibit A" in this) and the associated things with this, but that is a great different from how one was/is saved. In fact, Scripture specifically says that Abraham was justfied, while uncircumcised. (Rom. 4:9-12) Further, every one that was saved prior to Abraham, had nothing at all to do with circumcision, for this was not yet revealed as something to be done by any.

Finally, I'm not sure the distinction of "through faith" vs. "by faith", is anywhere as sharply defined, as you are claiming. Gal. 2:16 uses both phrases in the same verse, and refers to the same thing. And the Greek in this verse has the same two prepositions (dia and ek) as Gal. 2:7.

Ed

 

Can one be saved without "justification"?

A mouthful to muddy the waters. Those that are "translator's", which I am not, differ on such matters. Appreciate if you will put into sentence form, then tie it in with verse 8, without changing its meaning? "(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles. I really cannot see how we can get around all the verses in the Bible pointing out Paul had another gospel, and it was specifically for we that are Gentiles. Now the Jew can be saved just as we (me). They couldn't before for they made a covenant with God to be His nation, and He would be their God. He never made an agreement with me, or promised me anything.

Yes, Abram was a Gentile when He was justified by faith. But Paul didn't say anything about "that dispensation". Check Hebrews 11 to see if this is not so. Scripture will prove scripture. None before we in this dispensation could be saved as are we.

If there is no distinction between Gentile "dogs", and God's people, while Jesus walked this earth, then can we believe anything Jesus said? If we can't believe what Paul says, can we believe anything Christ Jesus told Paul from heaven? I believe "what" Jesus said "while" He "was" on earth. I also believe Christ Jesus "while" He "is" in heaven.

Jesus taught His Apostles while He was on earth, and when Pentecost came the Holy Spirit began teaching them what Jesus said while Jesus was on earth concerning the "kingdom that was at hand", and was to come. They are of the "Kingdom Church" with it's promises and are justified by faith with the "Kingdom Gospel".

After Damascus Road we know Paul was taught the gospel of justification through faith, not of man, but "by the revelation of Jesus Christ". We know it was impossible for any before He shed His blood to come "through His blood, or through His faith". No man knew this even from the beginning. Once we believe Christ from heaven, we then can know He did give to Paul His (Gods) "dispensational" gospel.

It is a New gospel that the Old cannot adhere to. Once we realize we cannot find the "Body of Christ Church", the rapture, our "justification today through faith; Then recognize the fact that it was only after Damascus Road we are the only humans ever, not required to perform a work, can we understand it really is possible by the Grace of God to "just believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved." This is the "grace commission", and not the "great commission" of repent and be baptized for the remission of our sins.

Did the Jewish Pentecostal "Kingdom Church" know about this? Did they know all they had to do was to "believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and they would be saved? Peter had no idea of this in Acts 2:38, as those Jew's asked what they must do. How could they know what God had hidden, for that had never been told. Justification through faith was "hidden in God", until after Damascus Road, and then the knowledge of the "Body Church", and the "rapture", and the law of ordinances were nailed to the Cross became known.

We have no commands today, or ordinances for they are all nailed to the Cross. The bread and the wine is His request of we in the "Body Church", remembering Him as oft as we will. He personally is coming back for us, snatching us up to Him in the air, before that man of sin becomes known in the tribulation period.

 

SALVATION IS THE SAME IN THE OLD TESTAMENT AND THE NEW
By Bruce Lackey

Paul quoted Genesis 15:6 ("And he believed in the Lord, and he counted it to him for righteousness.") in Rom. 4:3 and Gal. 3:6, to show that we are saved the same way as Abraham was before the law.

He quoted Hab. 2:4 ("the just shall live by his faith") in Rom. 1:17 and Psa. 32:1-2 ("Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity.") in Rom. 4:6-8 to show the same about those during the dispensation of law.

Both Paul (Rom. 10:13) and Peter (Acts 2:21) quoted Joel 2:32 ("And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered"), which describes the tribulation period, to show that we must be saved now even as they will be then!

Paul told Timothy that the scriptures which he had known from childhood were able to make him wise unto salvation through faith in Christ Jesus, and these scriptures could only have been the Old Testament (2 Tim. 3:15).

The same glorious truth is taught in the following:

Rom. 4:23-24
Rom. 10:11, from Isa. 28:14
2 Cor. 6:2, from Isa. 49:8
Gal. 3:8, from Gen. 12:3
Gal. 3:10, from Deut. 27:26
Heb. 10:37-38, from Isa. 26:20 and Hab. 2:3-4

The requirement of sacrifices in Old Testament times was to teach them two great truths: (1) death by the shedding of blood is necessary for the forgiveness of sin; and (2) no perfect sacrifice had yet appeared. They were to be looking for Him whose heel would be bruised, and who would bruise the head of the serpent (Gen. 3:15). (Bruce Lackey, Can You Trust Your Bible?, 3020 Northway Lane, Chattanooga, TN 37406).

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot.htm

Follow up article:

http://www.wayoflife.org/fbns/salvationot2.htm

 

OT Salvation

We seem to have left out a serious qualifier: ...and that not yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works, lest any man should. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Eph. Ch. 2.

Choose wisely,:jesus:

Bro. James

 

Yep! Its all about believing according to the Bible.

 

This most likely is the verse/s you are looking for.

I Peter 3:18. For Christ also died for sins once for all, {the} just for {the} unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit;
19. in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits {now} in prison,
20. who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through {the} water.
21. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
22. who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

 

The problem with this is, why didn't He preach to the spirits who were in prison after the time of Noah? The disobedient ones after Noah needed salvation just as bad.

 

GordonSlocom has one of the passages (in a very informative post, I add) in I Peter 3:18-22.
This is the closest to some of this being 'explicitly stated', in one verse or passage, I believe, yet it is not a 'stand alone' truth, based on one verse.
Let's look at a few: We'll start with Psalm 16: 8-11, quoted mostly verbatim in Acts.

As Psalms uses Sheol, the Hebrew word that is the equivalent of Hades, "the realm of the departed" or "the realm of the dead', we see that the Lord went to this place, after his crucifixion and burial, according to Acts 2:24. And a shortened version of this is also found in Acts 13:35.
What did the Lord do while he was there? And where exactly was this, anyway? Apparently, where it was, was in the "heart of the earth, as Matthew 12:38-40, says regarding the Lord being in the heart of the earth.
Some more information on this place is found in Luke 16:19-31, with the account or story, it's not a parable, of the rich man and Lazarus. It seems there were several 'places' in one. There was the place called Abraham's bosom, which I believe to be also called Paradise, were both Jesus and the (saved) thief went after death (Luke 23:43), after Jesus dismissed His spirit to the hands of the Father. (Lk. 23:46); there was a place called "torments", where the rich man was 'tormented' (Lk. 16: 23-24); there was the 'great gulf fixed' that separated these locales (Lk. 16:26); and there was , I believe, an inner prison, where some 'fallen angels' (or spirits) from Noah's day were 'being held', in the verses Gordon mentioned. There was also a place called "tartaros" where it tells us that God cast down "the angels that sinned"( II Peter , and was considered by the ancients as 'the innermost prison' or a place 'lower than Hades'.

I have posted on most of this, in post #24, as to 'what' He preached, usig a very free interpretation (and a great deal of "poetic license") so will not do it over, as I'm about to go to sleep :sleep: , sitting here typing this response, so

G'nite, all!

Ed

 

Quick answer: There is no Biblical record of any other spirits being imprisoned, at any other time than this one. There are plenty of the variety of 'ordinary' demons still around to give you all the grief you want (or have earned on the pages of the BB). :tongue3: :laugh: :laugh:

Ed