How were people saved in the OT?

Faith Plus Nothing

Posted by J. Jump

I appreciate your answer J. Jump, but I agree with Linda, that you are making a simple issue complex. If I had to figure all this out to be saved I think I'd give up. Though maybe unintentional, I believe you blur the lines between justification and sanctification.

I agree.

I have to disagree about Lordship Salvation being works based. Turning your statement around would be like me comparing all no-lordship salvationists with Zane Hodges. There are extremists in both camps. I agree with the Lordship position, and like many I say, "Faith plus nothing." But, that is for another thread.

I didn't say "made." I said "declared." We are justified, or "declared" righteous in the Salvation event. We "grow" in righteousness as a part of our sanctification.

As for the resurrection, in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul said it was of first importance. Since Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles and he says in vs 2, "By this gospel you are saved..." I will stand by that Gospel.

Thanks for your post J. Jump:godisgood:

 

Okay I have to ask this question . . . How in the world is believing in Jesus Christ's substitutionary death and shed blood on your behalf a sinner making something complex. There is nothing complex about that. If you believe Jesus died in your stead and shed His blood to pay for your sins you are saved. Not maybe saved if you prove it with your works, but you are saved . . . period . . . end of Biblical discussion on salvation.

How is that complex . . . seriously. Believe and you are saved. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this statement. Eternal justification and sanctification are two different events. However progressive justification and sanctification happen at the same time.

Well all Lorship salvation proponents do disagree with it, but it is what it is. It is just backloading works instead of front loading works. Lordship salvation says if you believe in Jesus Christ, but you don't do one single good work then you are not saved. That's works based salvation no matter how you cut or slice it.

Spiritual salvation is not something that has to be or can be proven. You either believe and are saved or you don't believe and you are still spiritually dead. Again there is nothing complex about that.

Lordship salvation is actually what complicates the simple Gospel message of believe and be saved.

Unfortunately Lordship salvation is not believe plus nothing. It is believe and then prove with works.

The question is what gospel is Paul speaking about? Gospel just means good news. There is good news to the spiritually dead and then there is good news to the spiritually alive.

There is nowhere in Scripture that one can find that God requires Lordship to have sin forgiven. Sin is forgiven based on death and shed blood, not Lordship.

Lordship is a totally different matter. It has to do with discipleship. Discipleship can come only AFTER spiritual salvation has taken place.

The resurrection has to do with discipleship, because we are to serve a risen Lord, Who is to be in charge of our lives. That doesn't mean we wil, but we should.

 

Hey all,

Not sure how far this thread has gone but here's something to consider. Jesus said (John 3) that all must come by the water and by the blood. So in this way, salvation has always been the same (if we can understand what Jesus was saying to Nicodemus, right?).

Water -- repentance from the sin of our "natural" birth
Blood -- spiritual rebirth, exchanging Adam's "dying" flesh for "living" blood.

This has not changed since Abel! Even many cultures throughout the world knew of this and observed it -- blood sacrifices, that is.

What HAS changed is what/whose blood, right? The blood of animals was NEVER effecacious in remitting sin which is why Paul in Hebrews tells us that it needed to be offered "continually."

Did that mean OT saints could lose their salvation? NO! But the "difference" is that they have not received yet the "sanctification" phase of salvation which we HAVE -- the indwelling Holy Spirit and the accompanying gifts. These THEY receive in the resurrection to the earthly kingdom of Jesus Christ/Messiah -- the MK.

We, on the other hand, are raptured to heaven (this is merely a study in the differences in our salvations, not a "promo" for pretrib rapture) for the very reason that we have the Holy Spirit already!

skypair

 

Amen. We are not of James to show our works, in order to confirm our faith, for then it is of no more grace.

 

Amen! We are to believe scripture and not tradition of man.

 

Perhaps this will be of help Deacon. Ephesians 4:8-10 puts Jesus down in the pit, way down in the pit. "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10. He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

I never doubt God's Word, for even if He may not show all of it to us, doesn't mean it is not there. There is no one that will be unjustly judged. They will be judged according to the dispensation each live in, for we can only believe while we are alive, and not reach back and try to believe what is dead, or has not yet come.

Today we can only believe "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit", Ephesians 3:1-5

God is a God of Judgment, and it is True Judgment, balanced, on the level, consistently not false; it is His Law, and He is the Judge of it.

 

GREAT POST skypair

Great Post skypair. Where we "dispensationalist's" in the "Body Church", seem to be far from some others in His "Body Church, and those of the "Kingdom Church", it is not that God changes His purpose and ability to save, but it is how we are justified, as well as to what gospel was presented at the time one lives.

We Gentiles before Damascus road could be "sanctified" by the Holy Spirit, in the manner of the Jew, into the "Kingdom Gospel" that is to come, and in the time of Jesus on earth was that "Kingdom Church", which was at hand. But the Gentile could never be "equal" to God's people for at that time God had not made provision for we Gentiles. The Gentile could never enter into the "inner court" to be near the Holy Place or the Most Holy Place.

But now in God's dispensation of Grace to all that will "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for our salvation", all are today justified through faith, when we confess the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We turned to Him and in Him is our repentance; our sins are no more. The Holy Spirit has "sanctified" us when He circumcised and baptized us without hands, and sealed us in.

The point is all men cannot believe the same gospel preached, i.e. there is no way David could believe and be saved just as we today. Peter tells us this. Are David and I saved by the same process or program of God to achieve his purpose. No, but we are saved as we come through the same person.

How do we get to that point of Salvation? On our way to salvation the Holy Spirit wraps us up and sends us to heaven, and this is our Once Saved Always Saved by grace without hands of man. In David's case he was, at death wrapped up and sent to the holding place, "Abrahams Bosom", for further processing at a later date. His Saved is Enduring until the End, and Salvation is yet to come at the shedding of the "blood of Jesus Christ". I believe we can say David is "aged wine" of the Old Testament, and we are "new wine" of the New Testament, and we are not to drink "mixed wine" (Proverbs 23:30). David is of the "Kingdom Church", and we are of the "Body Church". It seems to me there is the "Kingdom of Christ", and there is the "Kingdom of God", and God will be all in all when it is all over.

 

Posted by J. Jump

I agree with the simple plan of Salvation. But, no offense, your ealier posts didn't present it as simply as you did above.

I will reply to this when I have more time.

I can see we will disagree on the Lordship issue, but that is for another thread. I don't want to pull this thread off it's original subject.

Take care:godisgood:

 

Hi J. Jump

Ok. I just wanted to take the time to study this to see if progressive justification and sanctification were what I thought they were, and make sure it wasn't some form of re-justification. I understand the thoughts, but had never heard this term. I'm just not used to speaking "brainiac.":laugh:

Man, J. Jump! Whatever happened to just good old justification, santification, and glorification.:laugh:

 

Well shame on me for not speaking clearly

That must have been my evil twin brother Justin :BangHead: I don't know how he escaped from those chains and locks in the basement :laugh:

That's a great question. Part of the problem is that the Bible sometimes uses more than one term to describe the same thing. Sometimes one Biblical word has different meanings in different contexts. What I think has happened is that Christendom has found what it wants to believe and has re-defined terms and gotten rid of terms.

And outside of the simple Gospel message of God's grace through faith apart from works things aren't quite as simple as just justification, sanctification and glorification. When we get away from the simple Gospel message of the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ for spiritual salvation we start getting into the meat of the Word, and when we get into the meat of the Word it can start to get complicated real fast, but thank God for His Holy Spirit Who teaches us if we let Him and makes plain the complex.

I have some GREAT and very detailed resource material. If you would like just PM me and I'll send it to you.

 

Hi J. Jump

I understand and agree that the Bible uses more than one term to describe the same thing...and that the same term can be defined differently depending on the context it is used in. I think we complicate things sometimes. Your average Christian doesn't know the difference between progressive and eternal justification and sanctification, or what terms like hermaneutics, soteriology, eschatology, etc...mean. While I think Christians should know more than they do, I think sometimes we leave the discussion table with more luggage than we brought to it.
:godisgood:

 

It is also said "that we might be 'made' the righteousness of God in Him." (Jesus Christ, who was 'made' sin for us) in II Cor. 5:21.

Ed

 

Very succinctly and accurately put!

Again, well put.

Ed

 

Your intended question was not clearly stated in your phrasing, however. Three of us, GordonSlocom, ittutut, and I, have responded in part to the question, as you phrased it. And as far as I can tell, none of us have even suggested that Jesus "preached to the souls of men that they might be saved". Although I did say that the lost in 'torments' would have 'heard' Him 'preach' to those in 'Paradise', that it was 'Movin' time', etc. (Post #24), and I specifically said there was no record that he preached, per se, to those in 'Torments'. I agree that it is not found that He preached to any who were not (already) 'saved', that they might (yet) be 'saved'. As another mentioned, I was not saying anything about any 'purgatory' or any 'second chances'.

Ed

 

I don't believe those that died in faith needed preaching to of the Old, but of the New. I believe Jesus preached to those of by faith, those of the "Kingdom Church" are now saved by coming through him. What is the gospel today? It is not the "covenant" gospel, but the gospel of the "Cross", by grace through faith for all things are Now New, for we look for Paradise, before that "Kingdom comes". Paul was in Paradise but could not speak to us about it. But the Holy Spirit did let him confirm Paradise is now in heaven.

Those of the "spirit" Jesus preached to know before we, what God had hidden from man at the Cross. They are told the victory is His and by your faith in me, you are now justified through my faith and declared holy. Can we image the joy of the moment? Don't know if Spirit's have to buckle up going from Paradise down here to Paradise up there, but they had time for Jesus was in the earth for three full 24 hour days. If He arrived down there on a Friday, He had only just a little over 24 hours to accomplish His mission.

Will this help you? Is this what you are looking for?

We can back this up with scripture. Psalms 68:18 helps clarify with "Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them." This again speaks to Israel His rebellious people, whether they be considered saints or not (Deuteronomy 9:7, 24) and other OT references to the Kingdom Church.)

People look at me and say, "ituttut you are not a saint". But in the local vernacular, "do we gotta' be?" We all want to look like one, and to God we do, for He sees not us but His Son. So Saints we are too, but looking at me and listening to me, I've got to admit I've been judged not to be so by some.

So even if some of us could be "saint's, and I'm probably not, I do know I'm so very happy to be a "son of God". Our Great God is Love, Mercy and full of Grace?

God's own people "those saints of old" that died by faith awaiting the promised Paradise? Surely the Word of God preached to those for whom He came.