How were the OT saints saved? Part Deux

[Steadfast Fred]

Abraham could not have been in heaven at that time, for Christ had not yet paid the price for man's sins. He had not died on the cross.

We know nothing that defiles can enter heaven, so because Christ had not yet died on the cross, Abraham could not have yet entered that place where the paradise of God is.

Where Abraham was was a compartment of sheole/hades. As you said, a place that was not subject to the flames and torments that the rich man suffered.

But the Bible does not call it paradise. And, as I said earlier, had Christ meant some compartment of hell when He said 'paradise', He would have been telling the thief that the thief would be in sheole/hades with Him.

I still believe Christ meant the paradise of God when He spoke of paradise.

 

[revmwc]

Abraham could not have been in heaven at that time, for Christ had not yet paid the price for man's sins. He had not died on the cross.

We know nothing that defiles can enter heaven, so because Christ had not yet died on the cross, Abraham could not have yet entered that place where the paradise of God is.

Where Abraham was was a compartment of sheole/hades. As you said, a place that was not subject to the flames and torments that the rich man suffered.

But the Bible does not call it paradise. And, as I said earlier, had Christ meant some compartment of hell when He said 'paradise', He would have been telling the thief that the thief would be in sheole/hades with Him.

I still believe Christ meant the paradise of God when He spoke of paradise.

He did mean the Paradise of God located in the abode of sheoul aka Abrahams bosom.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I just went through the writings of two historians who wrote about the Jews; Edersheim, and Josephus.

Of all their writings, not one mentions the Jews believing that paradise was in sheole. (Nor did either say that paradise was also known as Abraham's Bosom)

And Josephus lived in the first century. Paradise is mentioned six times in The Works of Josephus" But it is spoken of as either Eden, a garden built by man, or the paradise of God in His eternal kingdom. Not one mentions sheole.

Why would a first century man who wrote concerning the Jews and their customs and teachings, not mention paradise as being in sheole?

One reason would be... Paradise was never in sheole.

 

[revmwc]

I just went through the writings of two historians who wrote about the Jews; Edersheim, and Josephus.

Of all their writings, not one mentions the Jews believing that paradise was in sheole. (Nor did either say that paradise was also known as Abraham's Bosom)

And Josephus lived in the first century. Paradise is mentioned six times in The Works of Josephus" But it is spoken of as either Eden, a garden built by man, or the paradise of God in His eternal kingdom. Not one mentions sheole.

Why would a first century man who wrote concerning the Jews and their customs and teachings, not mention paradise as being in sheole?

One reason would be... Paradise was never in sheole.

Then Jesus talking about Abraham's bosom would have been a lie. With the souls of the O.T. saints who were saved in Abraham's bosom that is the Jewish they were in sheoul of that you have stated. Samuel came up from some compartment. Scripture specifies it as definitely being a compartment of sheoul with a great gulf fixed between the compartments Then where would you attribute Christ going? Since Scripture is again quite clear He descended.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Fairly clear He descended into the lower parts of the earth first, before He ascended, so if he decended into Abrahams bosom are you saying the theif went to heaven and beat Christ there? Or would paradise and Abraham's bosom be the same at the point of Christ death? Or do you consider Paul and Peters scripture nul and void? Please explain how He descended if paradise was in fact not a compartment in sheol and since it is clear Christ descended first where the thief went.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Then Jesus talking about Abraham's bosom would have been a lie. With the souls of the O.T. saints who were saved in Abraham's bosom that is the Jewish they were in sheoul of that you have stated. Samuel came up from some compartment. Scripture specifies it as definitely being a compartment of sheoul with a great gulf fixed between the compartments Then where would you attribute Christ going? Since Scripture is again quite clear He descended.
Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Fairly clear He descended into the lower parts of the earth first, before He ascended, so if he decended into Abrahams bosom are you saying the theif went to heaven and beat Christ there? Or would paradise and Abraham's bosom be the same at the point of Christ death? Or do you consider Paul and Peters scripture nul and void? Please explain how He descended if paradise was in fact not a compartment in sheol and since it is clear Christ descended first where the thief went.

There is not one Scripture verse that says Abraham's bosom is Paradise. So your claim that Jesus made such a reference is not found in the Word of God.

Christ descended to free the righteous dead from that compartment of sheole that was separated from the part that had flames and torment.

Jesus took the thief to the Paradise of God. But the Paradise of God was not in sheole/hades.

Where is the Scripture that says Jesus descended into paradise? The Greek word for paradise cannot be found in any verse mentioning sheole/hades. Paradise is not, nor was it ever, in sheole/hades.

 

[revmwc]

There is not one Scripture verse that says Abraham's bosom is Paradise. So your claim that Jesus made such a reference is not found in the Word of God.

Christ descended to free the righteous dead from that compartment of sheole that was separated from the part that had flames and torment.

Jesus took the thief to the Paradise of God. But the Paradise of God was not in sheole/hades.

Where is the Scripture that says Jesus descended into paradise? The Greek word for paradise cannot be found in any verse mentioning sheole/hades. Paradise is not, nor was it ever, in sheole/hades.

So if only Abraham and Jews were in Abraham's bosom and it was not one and the same as paradise then where did the non-jew go? Like Adam, Eve, Noah, Job, Naaman, Nebuchadneezer and others. If noone entered heaven as we have been saying then where did they ego? Abraham was the father of the Jews and his descendents would be with him under your view so only jews would be in Abrahams bosom by what you seem to be saying.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

So if only Abraham and Jews were in Abraham's bosom and it was not one and the same as paradise then where did the non-jew go? Like Adam, Eve, Noah, Job, Naaman, Nebuchadneezer and others. If noone entered heaven as we have been saying then where did they enter Abraham was the father ofthe Jews and his descendents would be with him under your view.

First off, I did not say only Jews were in Abraham's bosom.

The fact is, any that were deemed to be righteous in God's eyes (through their acts of faith) went to the compartment of sheole/hades where Abraham was. This would include the harlot Rahab, Ruth the Moabitess, etc..

Second, the last part of your post needs to be rephrased, as in its present state it is unclear

 

[revmwc]

First off, I did not say only Jews were in Abraham's bosom.

The fact is, any that were deemed to be righteous in God's eyes (through their acts of faith) went to the compartment of sheole/hades where Abraham was. This would include the harlot Rahab, Ruth the Moabitess, etc..

Second, the last part of your post needs to be rephrased, as in its present state it is unclear

But it was in the Language of Jesus story, the rich man said father Abraham. Lazerus was a Jew in Abrahams bosom. Jesus as a Jew would have gone to Abrahams bosom as would the theif being deemed to be in righteousness. So if they would go to Abrahams bosom and Jesus said paradise would they not be the same place. If not and Jesus decended into the earth where did He go? Where would paradise have been?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

But it was in the Language of Jesus story, the rich man said father Abraham. Lazerus was a Jew in Abrahams bosom. Jesus as a Jew would have gone to Abrahams bosom as would the theif being deemed to be in righteousness. So if they would go to Abrahams bosom and Jesus said paradise would they not be the same place. If not and Jesus decended into the earth where did He go? Where would paradise have been?

How do you come to the conclusion that Lazarus was a Jew? The account in Luke 16 does not tell what Lazarus' ethnic background was.

Jesus descended into sheole/hades. Jesus nowhere said paradise was in sheole/hades.

Yes, He did tell the thief, "To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.' But I do not believe Jesus was referring to sheole in that statement, nor do I believe He was speaking of the physical day. Remember, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

 

[revmwc]

How do you come to the conclusion that Lazarus was a Jew? The account in Luke 16 does not tell what Lazarus' ethnic background was.

Jesus descended into sheole/hades. Jesus nowhere said paradise was in sheole/hades.

Yes, He did tell the thief, "To day, thou shalt be with me in paradise.' But I do not believe Jesus was referring to sheole in that statement, nor do I believe He was speaking of the physical day. Remember, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years and a thousand years as a day.

Since the Jews knew who Lazarus was and probably the rich man too and since Lazarus was begging from the rich man how would he be anything but a Jew.

This day was the term used, not a day or the 1 st or second day this or actually today.

Luke 23:

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Since the Jews knew who Lazarus was and probably the rich man too and since Lazarus was begging from the rich man how would he be anything but a Jew.

This day was the term used, not a day or the 1 st or second day this or actually today.

Luke 23:

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

44And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour.

Scripture does not say the Jews knew Lazarus. Only that the rich man knew him. And why wouldn't the rich man know him? Lazarus lay at his gate begging.

The fact that the rich man knew Lazarus' name does not mean Lazarus was a Jew.

If I told you I spoke on the phone with a girl named Deborah, could you tell me what nationality she was? I doubt you could.


It appears to me that you constantly add thoughts to the Word of God where the Word of God is silent; i.e., Lazarus was a Jew, paradise was in sheole/hades, etc., to fit your theology.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

From Vines Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testaments:

Paradise:

<1,,3857,paradeisos>
is an Oriental word, first used by the historian Xenophon, denoting "the parks of Perisian kings and nobles." It is of Persian origin (Old Pers. pairidaeza, akin to Gk. peri, "around," and teichos, "a wall") whence it passed into Greek. See the Sept., e.g., in Neh. 2:8; Eccl. 2:5; Song of Sol. 4:13. The Sept. translators used it of the garden of Eden, Gen. 2:8, and in other respects, e.g., Num. 24:6; Isa. 1:30; Jer. 29:5; Ezek. 31:8,9.

In Luke 23:43, the promise of the Lord to the repentant robber was fulfilled the same day; Christ, at His death, having committed His spirit to the Father, went in spirit immediately into Heaven itself, the dwelling place of God (the Lord's mention of the place as "paradise" must have been a great comfort to the malefactor; to the oriental mind it expressed the sum total of blessedness). Thither the Apostle Paul was caught up, 2 Cor. 12:4, spoken of as "the third heaven" (ver. 3 does not introduce a different vision), beyond the heavens of the natural creation (see Heb. 4:14, RV, with reference to the Ascension). The same region is mentioned in Rev. 2:7, where the "tree of life," the figurative antitype of that in Eden, held out to the overcomer, is spoken of as being in "the Paradise of God" (RV), marg., "garden," as in Gen. 2:8.
_____________________________________________________________
Christ was not speaking of sheole when He told the thief, "To day thou shalt be with me in paradise." He was referring to Heaven, the paradise of God. Christ went there to offer His blood upon the mercyseat. After the blood was offered, the door was opened for all whom belonged to Christ, to enter into the throne room of God.

We must remember that the thief did not die at the same time Christ died. The Roman soldiers broke the legs of the thieves but did not break Christ's legs because His body was already dead. The thieves died sometime after Christ.

The thief did not even go to sheole! The way had been opened for him to go directly to paradise! Jesus' promise to the thief was not that He and the thief would be in sheole together, but rather that they would be in paradise together!

 

[revmwc]

From Vines Expository Dictionary of the Old and New Testaments:

Paradise:

<1,,3857,paradeisos>
is an Oriental word, first used by the historian Xenophon, denoting "the parks of Perisian kings and nobles." It is of Persian origin (Old Pers. pairidaeza, akin to Gk. peri, "around," and teichos, "a wall") whence it passed into Greek. See the Sept., e.g., in Neh. 2:8; Eccl. 2:5; Song of Sol. 4:13. The Sept. translators used it of the garden of Eden, Gen. 2:8, and in other respects, e.g., Num. 24:6; Isa. 1:30; Jer. 29:5; Ezek. 31:8,9.

In Luke 23:43, the promise of the Lord to the repentant robber was fulfilled the same day; Christ, at His death, having committed His spirit to the Father, went in spirit immediately into Heaven itself, the dwelling place of God (the Lord's mention of the place as "paradise" must have been a great comfort to the malefactor; to the oriental mind it expressed the sum total of blessedness). Thither the Apostle Paul was caught up, 2 Cor. 12:4, spoken of as "the third heaven" (ver. 3 does not introduce a different vision), beyond the heavens of the natural creation (see Heb. 4:14, RV, with reference to the Ascension). The same region is mentioned in Rev. 2:7, where the "tree of life," the figurative antitype of that in Eden, held out to the overcomer, is spoken of as being in "the Paradise of God" (RV), marg., "garden," as in Gen. 2:8.
_____________________________________________________________
Christ was not speaking of sheole when He told the thief, "To day thou shalt be with me in paradise." He was referring to Heaven, the paradise of God. Christ went there to offer His blood upon the mercyseat. After the blood was offered, the door was opened for all whom belonged to Christ, to enter into the throne room of God.

We must remember that the thief did not die at the same time Christ died. The Roman soldiers broke the legs of the thieves but did not break Christ's legs because His body was already dead. The thieves died sometime after Christ.

The thief did not even go to sheole! The way had been opened for him to go directly to paradise! Jesus' promise to the thief was not that He and the thief would be in sheole together, but rather that they would be in paradise together!

So when did He descend? Ephesians 4: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Until he presented the blood that paid for the sins noone could enter. So vine is saying that Ascended before He descended. But Paul says He descended first, so is vine correct or Paul, or is that what you are saying it appears to be from Vines but I don't want to attribute that to him if it isn't. So where was paradise if Jesus descended first? The theif must have ended in limbo until Christ ascended to the father, which was the statement He made to Mary Magdeline "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my father." Where had He been then? Today He told the thief, you shall be with me in paradise. Do you think the thief would have had the same comfort if He had today we will be in Abraham's bosom, since you agree it was in sheol?

 

[revmwc]

It appears to me that you constantly add thoughts to the Word of God where the Word of God is silent; i.e., Lazarus was a Jew, paradise was in sheole/hades, etc., to fit your theology.

Let's not add words let's see what scripture says Luke 23:

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So Christ was going to paradise.

Ephesians 4:
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Verse 9 Paul says Christ descended first into the lower parts of the earth.

So from this Jesus went into the lower parts of the earth and since the bible doesn't say paradise was in sheol it must mean it is somewhwere else in the lower parts of the earth. But after he ascended we know it was then refered to as in heaven, Paul bears tht out. So conclusion we don't know where paradise was when Jesus died other than Paul saying it was in thelower parts of the earth if Christ descended first. Then once He presented the blood He took paradise to heaven and left Abraham's bosom where it was because we never see Abraham's bosom taken to heaven in scripture. So the O.T. saints must still be in sheol because that abode is still there. If scripture doesn't say it was moved then we can't assume it was moved nor those saints moved.

 

[psalms109:31]

Elijah

Where did Enoch and Elijah end up going and where did the transfigured Elijah and Moses come from?

 

[Steadfast Fred]

So when did He descend? Ephesians 4: 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Until he presented the blood that paid for the sins noone could enter. So vine is saying that Ascended before He descended. But Paul says He descended first, so is vine correct or Paul, or is that what you are saying it appears to be from Vines but I don't want to attribute that to him if it isn't. So where was paradise if Jesus descended first? The theif must have ended in limbo until Christ ascended to the father, which was the statement He made to Mary Magdeline "touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my father." Where had He been then? Today He told the thief, you shall be with me in paradise. Do you think the thief would have had the same comfort if He had today we will be in Abraham's bosom, since you agree it was in sheol?

Christ's Spirit ascended first. (Father, into Thy hands, I commend My Spirit) His body could ascend until it had first descended (been buried) There is no contradiction with either my teaching, nor with Paul's.

Yes, Jesus did tell one not to touch His body for it had not yet ascended. But He also allowed two others that same morning to touch His feet. (Matthew 28:9).

Christ evidently allowed some to touch Him and others He did not.

But the fact is, He died prior to the thieves. His Spirit returned to the Father while the body was buried. The thief, who died some time after Christ, did not go to sheole, he went to paradise... for Christ had opened the way to paradise for him.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Let's not add words let's see what scripture says Luke 23:

42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So Christ was going to paradise.

Ephesians 4:
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


Verse 9 Paul says Christ descended first into the lower parts of the earth.

So from this Jesus went into the lower parts of the earth and since the bible doesn't say paradise was in sheol it must mean it is somewhwere else in the lower parts of the earth. But after he ascended we know it was then refered to as in heaven, Paul bears tht out. So conclusion we don't know where paradise was when Jesus died other than Paul saying it was in thelower parts of the earth if Christ descended first. Then once He presented the blood He took paradise to heaven and left Abraham's bosom where it was because we never see Abraham's bosom taken to heaven in scripture. So the O.T. saints must still be in sheol because that abode is still there. If scripture doesn't say it was moved then we can't assume it was moved nor those saints moved.

Is sheole Christ's kingdom? The thief wanted to go to Christ's kingdom.

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Where did Enoch and Elijah end up going and where did the transfigured Elijah and Moses come from?

Different topic. You might want to start another thread to discuss it.

 

[revmwc]

Christ's Spirit ascended first. (Father, into Thy hands, I commend My Spirit) His body could ascend until it had first descended (been buried) There is no contradiction with either my teaching, nor with Paul's.

Yes, Jesus did tell one not to touch His body for it had not yet ascended. But He also allowed two others that same morning to touch His feet. (Matthew 28:9).

Christ evidently allowed some to touch Him and others He did not.

But the fact is, He died prior to the thieves. His Spirit returned to the Father while the body was buried. The thief, who died some time after Christ, did not go to sheole, he went to paradise... for Christ had opened the way to paradise for him.

We aren't told how much time passed between Mary touching Him and the others, but there was a period of time that He could have ascended, we aren't told He did so we can't know.

So Paul saying that was not scriptural? Ephesians 4:
8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Christ did not open the way until He ascended and He told Mary he had not yet ascended, John 20:

16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

Now you seem to be trying to weave this into scripture to fit your belief. Paul says He descended first, Christ said he had not yet ascended to His Father, this is scripture. If he had not yet ascended then the tief could not have gone to Heaven and if paradise was in Heaven then the thief could not have gone their and seen Christ "Today" as Christ said. Let scripture talk for us and then do we have to concluded certain things or just wonder.


Here it is again in Ephesians 4:9 it says "what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?"
How can Paul say this if He ascended first, you seem to be taking away from scripture here.

 

[psalms109:31]

Thanks

Different topic. You might want to start another thread to discuss it.

That is all I need to know thank you, that it is a different topic:thumbsup: