How were the OT saints saved?

Reread my post. I said that he like others had failed to quote any OT Scripture that told an OT person to believe in Jesus for salvation. So you jump in and quote NT Scriptures (that, IMHO, do not prove your point anyway--those verses are absolutely consistent with what I have been saying all along). The challenge still stands -- Cite an OT Scripture that tells a person to believe in Jesus for salvation. BTW, your Gal citations says that Abraham believed God, something that I would wholeheartedly agree with. Everyone in the OT was saved by believing God.

Chris, I think you are confusing the issue. The issue is not does the OT reveal a coming Messiah who would atone for sins -- It does. The issue is not does the atonement of Christ save all men in all times -- It does. The issue is what is the specific content of belief in the OT. I am challenging you, or anyone of your opinion, to back up your position with OT Scripture, the revelation that an OT person would have had.

My point is that the NT is so clear on this issue: Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. If the NT made it so clear and the OT is the same, then where is the clear citation?

[ July 02, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
Chris, I think you are confusing the issue. The issue is not does the OT reveal a coming Messiah who would atone for sins -- It does. The issue is not does the atonement of Christ save all men in all times -- It does. The issue is what is the specific content of belief in the OT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Larry:

Somewhere along the line I may have misunderstood your argument. I agree entirely with what you say here; people everywhere at all times have been saved by grace, through faith in the special revelation that God had given to them in that time. The OT saints were saved through their faith in the promised Redeemer and the NT saints are saved through their faith in the Redeemer Come.

If I have misunderstood or misrepresented you, I apologize.

Galatians 3:6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The OT saints were saved through their faith in the promised Redeemer and the NT saints are saved through their faith in the Redeemer Come.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I am asking for OT scriptural proof for. Where in the OT does it tell the OT Israelite to believe in the coming Messiah for salvation? I just have not seen it. I am not convinced that an OT believer had to have a conscious understanding of the final sacrifice for sin. I simply do not see the OT basis for that. When God said to bring a sacrifice for sin, the believer brought it in faith understanding that the sacrifice would be accepted as a covering for his sin. I do not know that his faith was in Jesus the Messiah. His faith was in God who said that he would accept the sacrifice. BTW, I don't think it is that big of an issue. To me it is more of a technical matter.

 

John 14
6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

I believe that we can all agree that this verse is true. No one will ever go to GOD THE FATHER with out first coming to GOD THE SON. We hope to show here that GOD THE SON, is taught by GOD as a PROMISE to the O.T. saints as stated in Jeremiah 33:14. This promise, of the coming of a personage that was going to take away the sin of the world, build the temple of GOD, set on the throne, and rule the world in rightousness. The O.T. saints knew that this personage was coming. They knew HIM by many different names THE MESSIAH, THE BRANCH, THE ROOT OF JESSE, THE SEED, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. They may not have known the details of the crucifixion, but they knew the punishment for sin was death, and this should have been apparent to them that a sacrifice was needed for the payment for sin. That is what the O.T. scrifices were for, to point to the MESSIAH, BRANCH, and any other of HIS names as to what GOD was preparing for them, the final scrifice, which HE provided for them.

If you read Isaiah 9, It explains many things. It is a promise from GOD, to the O.T. saints. The belief in the personage of this verse is what saved the O.T. saints and the N.T. saints also. The WORD of GOD here is powerful that if the only verse of the O.T. you had possession of was this one, and you put your faith in the personage that is being spoken of, you would be saved.

Isaiah 9
6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.


Now in time before the O.T. was written the promise God provided was THE SEED of the woman, which teaches virgin birth. It was the Belief in THE SEED that saved them.
Genesis 3
15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Here we can see the promise of hope.
Job 14
7
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.

Here one should see the promise of THE BRANCH, that will die, be resurrected, and live forever.


Here are some more referrences to the O.T. personage we know as CHRIST.
Isaiah 11
1
And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 60
20
Thy sun shall no more go down; neither shall thy moon withdraw itself: for the LORD shall be thine everlasting light, and the days of thy mourning shall be ended.
21
Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

Jeremiah 23
5
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jeremiah 33
14
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.
15
In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
16
In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

Zechariah 3
8
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.

Zechariah 6
12
And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the LORD:
13
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.

It is the belief in the personage spoken of in these verses, that I believe is what saved the O.T. saints. There has only been one true plan for salvation that the LORD GOD has provided man. It is the belief in the true saviour. HE has many names as we can all see from O.T. scripture, but his identity is the same, the promised one from GOD who would come and has come and will come again.

John 6
45
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

What the books of the bible are teaching and have always taught, salvation through the promise. His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace, THE SEED, THE BRANCH, THE MESSIAH, THE SON OF GOD, JESUS CHRIST, LORD OF LORDS, KING OF KINGS, and any other true scriptural name, that I may have missed. These names are of one personal being, that true faith in any of these names, will be your salvation.

Heed the prophets, let every man be taught, and listen to what you have learned from the FATHER and come into the SON. There are many other scriptures that point to the personage of CHRIST in the O.T. we should all search them out in faith. PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

 

Maranatha,

That is a wonderful collection of verses, all of which say what I have said from the beginning -- That Christ was prophesied in the OT as the sole means of salvation.

However, which of those verses is it that tells the OT person to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved? You are not yet addressing that question. The issue is what is the specific content of saving faith in the OT?

By the way, you made Job 14:7 stand on its head to make it refer to Christ. That is not a proper use of Scripture.

 

Maranatha:

You left out one of the most important passages:

Dan 9:24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.

 

Chris

I could have, but left out some, to entice others to post more verses. I agree with you, that one is the best. Did not want to have a extremely long post either, PLEASE fill free to continue, I would like to read what others have found that show CHRIST as the center of attention in the O.T. I believe you can find referrences to HIS birth, death, and resurrection in the O.T. along with the virgin birth.

Larry

It is only your opinion that I made Job stand on his head. If you can not see the parallel in the scripture im sorry, but do not say it is wrong just because you did not get it, and others did. For every book in the bible points to JESUS. If you do not see a referrence to JESUS in any of the books in the bible, I am afraid you missed it, and highly recommend you read it again. PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

 

Larry

Question: If this verse is true?
John 14
6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

If not having a understanding, of what it takes for salvation, would as it appears to me, would mean one to be forever lost. I guess what im asking you is how can the O.T. saints be saved if they did not know they had to go through THE PROMISED ONE to be able to come unto the FATHER? If this is what we are trying to establish, I then ask what did save the O.T. saints? PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

 

Maranatha,

I asked a specific question. Which verse indicates the Jesus Christ was the specific object of saving faith in the OT? For instance, the NT is clear in a number of passages. Where is the OT equivalent?

You have quoted a number of passages. I agree with everyone of them. I don't see any mention of faith in this Messiah. It simply states the fact that he is coming. BTW, two significant passages that will add to your list are Isa 53 and Zech 13. I think prophecies of Christ are all through the OT. I just did a major exegetical thesis on Isaiah 7:10-17 on the Virgin Prophecy. That Christ is prophesied is not the issue. The issue is where is Christ made the object of faith?

I can see how from the perspective of the NT looking back you can make your claim. But you must remember that the OT person did not have the NT. That is why I say they were responsible for what they had. Again I ask, from the OT, where is Christ made the object of saving faith?

My personal feeling is that this is not that big of a deal. People in the OT and the NT are saved by grace through faith by the sovereign election of God. The only question deals with teh content of saving faith. All I am asking is that if you make a claim concerning the OT, then do it from the OT not the NT.

As for Job 14:7, read it in context:

Job 14:7 "For there is hope for a tree, When it is cut down, that it will sprout again, And its shoots will not fail. 8 "Though its roots grow old in the ground And its stump dies in the dry soil, 9 At the scent of water it will flourish And put forth sprigs like a plant. 10 "But man dies and lies prostrate. Man expires, and where is he? 11 "As water evaporates from the sea, And a river becomes parched and dried up, 12 So man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, He will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

Job is commenting on the end of life. He says that a tree will be cut down but it will regrow -- the water will cause it to flourish. Man, by contrast, dies and that is it. He does not rise; he will not wake or be aroused from his sleep (v. 12). No matter what position you hold on any issue, you cannot just rip a verse from its context because it has a few words that you like, like branch and rise again. It is clearly not talking about Christ. I don't really think that is a matter of my opinion either. Perhaps someone else will comment.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>how can the O.T. saints be saved if they did not know they had to go through THE PROMISED ONE to be able to come unto the FATHER? If this is what we are trying to establish, I then ask what did save the O.T. saints?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe that OT saints were saved by responding to the revelation that they had. For instance, in the most predominant section of the OT, the Law, people came to God in faith with a sacrifice -- there was no other way. You could not roll up to the tabernacle and say, "Well I didn't bring a lamb; I am just trusting in the coming Messiah." They came with faith in God that he would accept that sacrifice as atonement for their sins. As I say, we know looking back that the sacrifices had typical function but there is not much if any indication that the OT saint knew that.I just have not seen any place where the antitype was made the object of faith.

We must also realize that because of the progresssive nature of revelation, the later Israelites knew much more than the earlier ones did and certainly much more than Adam.

 

BTW, we can agree to disagree on this. So far as I know there is not OT verse that makes Christ the content of saving faith. No one has found in many years of searching and I doubt anyone here will be the first. We agree that Christ is the only way of eternal life and the Christ is the sacrifice for all sins of all time. We simply disagree on the specific of OT content of saving faith. Fortunately for one of us (probably you ), we don't live in the OT.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MARANATHA2000:
It is only your opinion that I made Job stand on his head. If you can not see the parallel in the scripture im sorry, but do not say it is wrong just because you did not get it, and others did. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MARANATHA2000:

It's only wrong by dispensational hermeneutics!

Larry:

Have you never read the Puritans?

 

Larry

I will not be dogmatic about Job 14. I could have missed this one.
7
For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
8
Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
9
Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
10
But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11
As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep

I believe that verses 7-9 are referring to CHRIST. I BELIEVE but can not prove!
That verse 7 is revealing CHRIST death, and resurrection to everlast life.
verse 8 even though all the roots of CHRIST ( HIS lineage )have died and are in the ground of the earth.
verse 9 The scent of water (THE HOLY SPIRIT)would bring forth resurrected life to CHRIST.
verse 10-12 is comparing CHRIST ressurection to the desolation of man's desperate despair where he we not rise again.
Just my opinion. I believe the whole book is about JESUS, so I look for HIM in all I read.

Your statement..... "I can see how from the perspective of the NT looking back you can make your claim. But you must remember that the OT person did not have the NT. That is why I say they were responsible for what they had. Again I ask, from the OT, where is Christ made the object of saving faith?"

You are correct here, in fact most of the O.T. saints did not have the WORD as we know it until Moses started writing GEN. (if this is still the accepted belief). So I think I am saying that GOD provided the info nessessary for the fulfillment of John 14:6 to the O.T. saints. Can I prove this, no, It's the conclusion I get from my study. I am sure there may be some that agree, and I know there are some that do not. If there is a verse that says have faith, in one of the names for CHRIST in the O.T. I can't find it either. But I believe that the emphasis GOD place on the sacrificial ceremony was to specifically teach that the MESSIAH IS THE OBJECT of faith, and what HE was going to do to accomplish prophecy. I believe the O.T. saints knew this. PEACE, but not yet .


" THE LORD COMETH "

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Have you never read the Puritans? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I have.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I believe that verses 7-9 are referring to CHRIST. I BELIEVE but can not prove!
That verse 7 is revealing CHRIST death, and resurrection to everlast life.
verse 8 even though all the roots of CHRIST ( HIS lineage )have died and are in the ground of the earth.
verse 9 The scent of water (THE HOLY SPIRIT)would bring forth resurrected life to CHRIST.
verse 10-12 is comparing CHRIST ressurection to the desolation of man's desperate despair where he we not rise again.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to pick on you but this is what I mean when I say going beyond authorial intent. The meaning you have just picked out is not rooted in the text but in presuppositions that you bring to the text. It makes sense but is it what Job was trying to say? I don't think so. Just because Christ was called the branch other places does not mean we can take every occurrence of a similar word and apply it to Christ. The context determines the (single) meaning of the words.


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>So I think I am saying that GOD provided the info nessessary for the fulfillment of John 14:6 to the O.T. saints. Can I prove this, no, It's the conclusion I get from my study. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My only comment would be to note that you are admittedly going outside of Scripture on this. I think you enter into a dangerous realm once you leave the confines of Scripture. BTW, I do believe that Moses wrote Genesis.

 

Larry

First if you will re-read my last post I said "I am NOT dogmatic about Job 14. I could have missed this one.

I was trying to explain why I believe what I believe. That does not mean I am not open for other interpretations.

We must also address what is meant by authorial intent. For any us , including ME and you, it should be stated as our interpretation of " authorial intent ". The evidence is there from secular historical documentation of early historical writers of the existance of the people the bible speaks about. But we can not physically prove any of the events that the bible says happened. We believe they happened through faith of the HOLY SPIRIT. This is how I believe GOD wanted it to be. But we can not prove any of the events really happened. We are only accepting copies of copies of copies of written versions of events, that were translated from one language to another, and these events happened from 2000 years ago back to 6000 years ago (depending on how old you believe all of creation is). We can't prove absolutly, that the bible is true, we can only BELIEVE that it is.

Now with this belief, comes different opinions. People are going to see scripture from different points of view. We are not all going to agree. We are all going to interpret scripture to our own belief system, and that is as honest of a statement, as you can get, and is very hard to argue against.

The problem I see with some on this board, is that if you do not agree with them, then you are wrong, and you are threading on " dangerous " ground. When the truth be known, is that they can't prove any of the beliefs they have concerning a particular verse. You can qoute commentary after commentary, or reference after reference. The only thing you have done is as I stated above, is to read someone else's interpretation based on their belief system. And none of it can be proven only believed by that person and accepted by others or not accepted by others.

Since we are all interpreting scripture on our belief systems, and accepting this fact, we all should NOT be dogmatic on our interpretations.

Now the good news. Since we (believers in CHRIST) are all really in the same boat. It is a very good thing, that JESUS CHRIST our LORD FATHER, THE HOLY SPIRIT is doing the driving. PEACE, but not yet.


" THE LORD COMETH "

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: MARANATHA2000 ]

 

I understand you were not dogmatic on Job 14 and I did not mean to offend you by using it as an example. I was not re-igniting the issue, only using it as a demonstration of what I have been trying to say in the hermeneutical discussion, as an illustration of what I meant by authorial intent.

I don’t think authorial intent is that hard to define and I don’t think it really comes down to interpretation. I think any interpretation must be based on and limited by authorial intent. Authorial intent is what the original author would have wanted his original reader to understand. He chose the words that, in his historical context and contemporary idiom and linguistics, would have best conveyed his intended message in a way that his readers could most easily understand without confusion. I don’t think there is anything deep about that.

With the certainty of Scripture, I am of the opinion that we can be a bit more sure than you seem to assert. I am a presuppositionalist in the mold of Bahnsen and Van Til but I will not be dogmatic that. I think Scripture is absolutely certain; it is not relegated to “I believe” status as if there are competing beliefs of equal worth and validity.

Talking about “dangerous ground” I am referring to those things that we assert without benefit of Scripture. You admitted you had no Scripture for you point; it was the result of your conclusion. My point was addressing the bigger issue of those things we assert without Scriptural basis. I believe that once we leave the confines of Scripture, we are treading on dangerous ground in terms of our authority. We can suggest something but must be careful not to dogmatize and stigmatize based on our conclusion. I realize that some of us disagree on some things and that is fine. The final authority is Scripture properly interpreted, which I am sure you agree with.

[ July 05, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

Larry

From your last post : "We can suggest something but must be careful not to dogmatize and stigmatize based on our conclusion. I realize that some of us disagree on some things and that is fine. The final authority is Scripture properly interpreted, which I am sure you agree with."

On this I agree with you, and if I might add, we must all realize, that no man is the final authority of the interpretation of scripture. We should all strive, through study and prayer, for GOD'S interpretation of HIS word. PEACE Brother.


" THE LORD COMETH "

 

pastor Larry,

Thanks for your perseverence on this thread. I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I would add that most of the prophecies concerning Christ came relatively late in the OT period--the last 1000 years.

Do you have any thoughts on why folks get confused about the content of the faith of OT saints? Is it misguided zeal? Ignorance of what true faith is and why it saves?

hugo