preacher4truth
Active Member
Not when you found Christ, when He found you.
A couple or so persons on the BB paint man (prior to regeneration) as doing good works, seeking God, and in these things as pretty good folks, Cornelius, and Zacharias and Elizabeth used as examples of this. Cornelius actually being presented (by one) as though because of his prayers and works, God recognized them, and then sent Peter to him for this reason. This was used to argue and refute one who rightly said "we can do no good concering salvation." Cornelius was then touted as proof we can do good concerning salvation.
Several others, on the other hand, recognize Cornelius as regenerate, and a teaching lesson to Peter that God was also saving Gentiles. Thus Peters dream and encounter with regenerate Cornelius to whom Peter would concisely explain how they, Gentiles, were going to be saved, yet the work already began in his/their hearts, concerning Cornelius and possibly also the others within his houselhold. Peter was then sent to express to him Christ and the Gospel and finalize the yet incomplete process already begun in his heart. This can be found in Acts 10, 11.
There are other accounts in Acts also that show an "incomplete" regeneration, but God definitely saving some, and completing their understanding of salvation at a later time. Anyhow, several proof-texts as these are used to prove man good, seeking, not unrighteous, &c, or in other words “able.” But the problem with this premise is that an unbiblical view of man (that he is good, seeking, doing righteous works) is used to come to an erroneous conclusion, that then he is “able” v. incapable of coming to God through deeds. Two fallacious conclusions are arrived at because the foundation is incorrect, and therefore anything off of this false base will only lead one to more error.
I must admit that I have never seen in any Baptist church, anywhere, teaching man earning a hearing, such as Cornelius has been falsely represented, due to his works, or, ever hearing in Baptist churches of lost man seeking God, doing good, being righteous, at all, outside of Christ. However, after hearing this on the BB, I have to say this is a false error and teaching that has infiltrated some churches (apparently).
Such teaching is akin to the teaching of the Masonic Lodge, (to which I came out of years ago) wherein a "good" person is invited to become a member based upon his "goodness." Yet the Scriptures attest that there are none good, and I agree to this.
I must also say that a man cannot and will not be saved until such recognizes oneself as lost and in need of a Savior.
Now, here are what the Scriptures say about lost man:
1) That lost man does not do good, does not seek God and is not righteous, no reverence for God &c; Romans 3:10-18.
2) That our minds are at enmity toward God, and that we are incapable within this state of lostness to keep the Law of God; Romans 8:7-8 (Note those that are in the flesh cannot please God, thus Cornelius must not have been in the flesh, or rather must not have been lost, but had to be in a regenerate state.)
3) We were alienated, and enemies of God, by wicked works; Colossians 1:21.
4) We were in the Kingdom of Darkness; Colossians 1:13.
5) We were spiritually dead, walked according to the course of this world, indulged the flesh and passions of the mind, were children of wrath; Ephesians 2:1-3.
6) Served and had other gods than the true God; 1 Thessalonians 1:9.
7) Were enslaved to and by sin and were not free; John 8:31-34.
8) Lived by the futility of our minds, had a darkened understanding, and were excluded from life, had hardened hearts, were sensual; Ephesians 4:18-19.
9) Practiced the works of the flesh: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife...&c; Galatians 5:20-21.
10) Were on the wrong course, obedient to the prince of this world; Ephesians 2.
11) That in our flesh nothing good dwells; Romans 7:18.
12) We were born in sin; Psalms 51:5.
13) Our hearts deceive us, and from within our hearts comes wickedness, being desperately wicked, and we cannot even understand this state; Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 5:18-19.
14) We are lost (to be destroyed); 2 Corinthians 4:3.
Jesus also came only to save the lost, and specifically not the righteous, "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:13 calling all that are lost to repentance. Thus Cornelius was not righteous, seeking God &c as Jesus did not come to call such to Himself. These false conclusions that he was in such a state of righteousness, seeking, good &c is a prime example of the unfounded and misguided conclusions one will arrive at using proof-text methodology v. using Scripture to interpret Scripture.
There is much more describing the lost state of man throughout Scriptures, and the bottom line indictment is that lost man (those in the flesh) cannot please God in works, deeds, or in any way whatsoever. God’s indictment upon lost man is that outside of Christ they are wicked, not one is good, that we are lost, enemies of God, at warfare with Him and more, and we can conclude in this that until God alone does a work of grace within our hearts we remain in this state.
Here is what Wayne Grudem says about this;
When Peter discovered Cornelius (by Holy Spirit leadership), he recognized these truths and that God must have done a work of regeneration in the heart of Cornelius, and judged thus “That God (since he was saving gentiles) is no respecter of persons” or “Opening his mouth Peter said: I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality.” Acts 10:34 (note how he has come to “understand” this, God is teaching him a thing here, which is the contextual objective of Acts 10-11) and the proof was Cornelius incomplete work of regeneration in that God made this lost Gentile capable of being pleasing to Himself through His Grace, thus and for this reason he states “but in every nation he who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.” Acts 10:35. They later concluded this and saw that those repenting were being led to such a state by God, and that He had also granted Gentiles repentance unto life; Acts 11:18. This is the method God used in the life of Cornelius to teach the Apostles how far-reaching His saving grace was. I believe He had to show forth to these Apostles this man in a state of good works/regeneration for them to be able to see and accept this. Context, the counsel of Scriptures and dogma of God concerning the state of lost man supports this.
But where were you when Christ found you? Lost, unrighteous, works as filthy rags, not accepted, as the Bible declares, or were you otherwise, and seeking God, doing righteous works, and good?
Me? Lost, unworthy, not seeking God, not righteous, not doing righteous works, wicked, evil, fit for destruction, and definitely not doing any good before the eyes of Holy God. I only began to seek God after He sought me and began His drawing work, and then I was saved.
- Peace
A couple or so persons on the BB paint man (prior to regeneration) as doing good works, seeking God, and in these things as pretty good folks, Cornelius, and Zacharias and Elizabeth used as examples of this. Cornelius actually being presented (by one) as though because of his prayers and works, God recognized them, and then sent Peter to him for this reason. This was used to argue and refute one who rightly said "we can do no good concering salvation." Cornelius was then touted as proof we can do good concerning salvation.
Several others, on the other hand, recognize Cornelius as regenerate, and a teaching lesson to Peter that God was also saving Gentiles. Thus Peters dream and encounter with regenerate Cornelius to whom Peter would concisely explain how they, Gentiles, were going to be saved, yet the work already began in his/their hearts, concerning Cornelius and possibly also the others within his houselhold. Peter was then sent to express to him Christ and the Gospel and finalize the yet incomplete process already begun in his heart. This can be found in Acts 10, 11.
There are other accounts in Acts also that show an "incomplete" regeneration, but God definitely saving some, and completing their understanding of salvation at a later time. Anyhow, several proof-texts as these are used to prove man good, seeking, not unrighteous, &c, or in other words “able.” But the problem with this premise is that an unbiblical view of man (that he is good, seeking, doing righteous works) is used to come to an erroneous conclusion, that then he is “able” v. incapable of coming to God through deeds. Two fallacious conclusions are arrived at because the foundation is incorrect, and therefore anything off of this false base will only lead one to more error.
I must admit that I have never seen in any Baptist church, anywhere, teaching man earning a hearing, such as Cornelius has been falsely represented, due to his works, or, ever hearing in Baptist churches of lost man seeking God, doing good, being righteous, at all, outside of Christ. However, after hearing this on the BB, I have to say this is a false error and teaching that has infiltrated some churches (apparently).
Such teaching is akin to the teaching of the Masonic Lodge, (to which I came out of years ago) wherein a "good" person is invited to become a member based upon his "goodness." Yet the Scriptures attest that there are none good, and I agree to this.
I must also say that a man cannot and will not be saved until such recognizes oneself as lost and in need of a Savior.
Now, here are what the Scriptures say about lost man:
1) That lost man does not do good, does not seek God and is not righteous, no reverence for God &c; Romans 3:10-18.
2) That our minds are at enmity toward God, and that we are incapable within this state of lostness to keep the Law of God; Romans 8:7-8 (Note those that are in the flesh cannot please God, thus Cornelius must not have been in the flesh, or rather must not have been lost, but had to be in a regenerate state.)
3) We were alienated, and enemies of God, by wicked works; Colossians 1:21.
4) We were in the Kingdom of Darkness; Colossians 1:13.
5) We were spiritually dead, walked according to the course of this world, indulged the flesh and passions of the mind, were children of wrath; Ephesians 2:1-3.
6) Served and had other gods than the true God; 1 Thessalonians 1:9.
7) Were enslaved to and by sin and were not free; John 8:31-34.
8) Lived by the futility of our minds, had a darkened understanding, and were excluded from life, had hardened hearts, were sensual; Ephesians 4:18-19.
9) Practiced the works of the flesh: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife...&c; Galatians 5:20-21.
10) Were on the wrong course, obedient to the prince of this world; Ephesians 2.
11) That in our flesh nothing good dwells; Romans 7:18.
12) We were born in sin; Psalms 51:5.
13) Our hearts deceive us, and from within our hearts comes wickedness, being desperately wicked, and we cannot even understand this state; Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 5:18-19.
14) We are lost (to be destroyed); 2 Corinthians 4:3.
Jesus also came only to save the lost, and specifically not the righteous, "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Matthew 9:13 calling all that are lost to repentance. Thus Cornelius was not righteous, seeking God &c as Jesus did not come to call such to Himself. These false conclusions that he was in such a state of righteousness, seeking, good &c is a prime example of the unfounded and misguided conclusions one will arrive at using proof-text methodology v. using Scripture to interpret Scripture.
There is much more describing the lost state of man throughout Scriptures, and the bottom line indictment is that lost man (those in the flesh) cannot please God in works, deeds, or in any way whatsoever. God’s indictment upon lost man is that outside of Christ they are wicked, not one is good, that we are lost, enemies of God, at warfare with Him and more, and we can conclude in this that until God alone does a work of grace within our hearts we remain in this state.
Here is what Wayne Grudem says about this;
When Peter discovered Cornelius (by Holy Spirit leadership), he recognized these truths and that God must have done a work of regeneration in the heart of Cornelius, and judged thus “That God (since he was saving gentiles) is no respecter of persons” or “Opening his mouth Peter said: I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality.” Acts 10:34 (note how he has come to “understand” this, God is teaching him a thing here, which is the contextual objective of Acts 10-11) and the proof was Cornelius incomplete work of regeneration in that God made this lost Gentile capable of being pleasing to Himself through His Grace, thus and for this reason he states “but in every nation he who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.” Acts 10:35. They later concluded this and saw that those repenting were being led to such a state by God, and that He had also granted Gentiles repentance unto life; Acts 11:18. This is the method God used in the life of Cornelius to teach the Apostles how far-reaching His saving grace was. I believe He had to show forth to these Apostles this man in a state of good works/regeneration for them to be able to see and accept this. Context, the counsel of Scriptures and dogma of God concerning the state of lost man supports this.
But where were you when Christ found you? Lost, unrighteous, works as filthy rags, not accepted, as the Bible declares, or were you otherwise, and seeking God, doing righteous works, and good?
Me? Lost, unworthy, not seeking God, not righteous, not doing righteous works, wicked, evil, fit for destruction, and definitely not doing any good before the eyes of Holy God. I only began to seek God after He sought me and began His drawing work, and then I was saved.
- Peace
